Candidate Moves in this position

Technical questions regarding Openings, Middlegames, Endings etc.
Matt Fletcher
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Re: Candidate Moves in this position

Post by Matt Fletcher » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:14 pm

My 2p worth - in short I'm another for 1. Nbc3.

Slightly longer: Black clearly has some serious compensation for the pawn, but maybe not quite enough because White can get fairly well organised before Black puts together any real threats.

White needs to be prepared to be a little on the defensive for a few moves. I'd like to play Nbc3, Bf4, Ne3, Be2, 0-0 in some order, and if I manage that without too much damage then I can think about pressing home the material advantage.

I don't think I want to put a Knight on d2 because one of Black's plans with his extra development must be to double Rooks on the d-file and I'd like to challenge that directly with a Rook on d1. Na3 just looks wrong.

Clearly Bf4 needs to come before Ne3 - I don't suppose it makes much difference whether you play Nbc3 or Bf4 first but just in principle I think I'd like to block the long diagonal before doing anything else.

PS I have an interesting position that a team-mate passed to me that I think fits well in this thread - Dan would you mind if I posted it here at some point?

John Hickman
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Re: Candidate Moves in this position

Post by John Hickman » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:13 pm

Nbc3 would be my instinctive first candidate move, but I'd first check to see if there were any threats that need to be dealt with. The c4 pawn is a bit of a target, with defence via b3 a bit difficult due to the long diaganol, it already being attacked, and new attacks available via e.g. Nd7-b6/e5 and Rc8. Also the King is still in the centre, and could be exposed to a tactic after 0-0/Re8/Bxc4+. Well obviously I get some moves in between, and if Nbc3 doesn't deal with these issues, I'd need something else. I'd probably have Be2 as second candidate, planning a swfit 0-0.

I'd also be thinking where I'd want my pieces developed so that have some cohesion. e.g. with Nbc3, the other Knight is probably going to be on e3, but that blocks my Bishop. Then I want to decide what the best order is to get them there. This sort of thinking I generally try to do in my opponents time.
Last edited by John Hickman on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dan O'Dowd
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Re: Candidate Moves in this position

Post by Dan O'Dowd » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:21 pm

Matt Fletcher wrote:My 2p worth - in short I'm another for 1. Nbc3.

Slightly longer: Black clearly has some serious compensation for the pawn, but maybe not quite enough because White can get fairly well organised before Black puts together any real threats.

White needs to be prepared to be a little on the defensive for a few moves. I'd like to play Nbc3, Bf4, Ne3, Be2, 0-0 in some order, and if I manage that without too much damage then I can think about pressing home the material advantage.

I don't think I want to put a Knight on d2 because one of Black's plans with his extra development must be to double Rooks on the d-file and I'd like to challenge that directly with a Rook on d1. Na3 just looks wrong.

Clearly Bf4 needs to come before Ne3 - I don't suppose it makes much difference whether you play Nbc3 or Bf4 first but just in principle I think I'd like to block the long diagonal before doing anything else.

PS I have an interesting position that a team-mate passed to me that I think fits well in this thread - Dan would you mind if I posted it here at some point?

Matt, I'd be happy for you to post your other position in here :D Perhaps you can leave us to ponder it and then reveal to us your thoughts in the same manner! I've had a huge response on another forum too, so on Friday night I'll do a tying up post for it all and if people would enjoy it, I can try to produce such pieces on a semi-regular basis, on any aspect of thinking process in game! :)

Matt Fletcher
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Re: Candidate Moves in this position

Post by Matt Fletcher » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:38 pm

OK, here's a position from a friend's game, played some 20 years ago.

It's Black to play, candidate moves and suggested plans please!


John Hickman
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Re: Candidate Moves in this position

Post by John Hickman » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:44 pm

Ah, I recognise that position from the Pirc, and would not go there as Black. Even though Black seems to have more that enough material for the 3 pieces (Q and 2p), it's really difficult to deal with White's initiative. I do remember trying to get g5 to trap the Biship to work a while back, but best to not get here in the first place!

Ray Sayers

Re: Candidate Moves in this position

Post by Ray Sayers » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:01 pm

I remember a young Nigel Short winning a game with White in this line and the various annotations said basically Black got chopped up doing this sort of thing.

I think Black needs to get his King to the Q-side fast. But a lot of the pawn moves needed to develop the Q-side pieces invite some sort of sac from White.

Maybe Be6 and Qd7?! And meet hitting the e6 pawn with a white rook by e5? I dunno, wish I could remember what happened in the Short game!

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Candidate Moves in this position

Post by Geoff Chandler » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:16 pm



White to play.

Of course my first thought was to try and get a hook on things by figuring out
what opening this came from (...and how come I have Knights on b1 and d1.)

It's pretty hard to get a g1 Knight to d1 in what...12-16 logical moves.

So then I'm thinking the lad has us analysing a Fischer Random game.
When the Knights started on d1 and and d8.

But there again:
It's pretty hard to get a d8 Knight to f6 in what...12-16 logical moves.
(That also means the Queens started on g1 and g8 - how did the g1 Queen
get out. Did a Black Knight hop in and nick it?).

So it's not Random chess.

I don't like White, I'm always uncomfortable being a pawn up and
lagging in the big D.



You can set a trap with 1.b2 and if 1...Nd5 (heading for b4) then White gets two
developed bits for a naff Rook with 2.cxd5. That must be OK.

If afer 1.b3 Ne4 2.Bb2 (putting that silly d1 Knight too work) looks like it holds
and it's chopping wood. (the pawn up mentality.)

But that is me thinking about it because it is a set position and someone
has asked me to find 'a move'. So I'm finding moves.

Sitting down in a game.
Offer a draw, I'm a pawn up, he will take it (please) I hate playing these positions.
I'd never have that position or anything like it as White. Never.
If I had to play it I'd take Black and refuse the cowardly draw offer.
I've been a pawn down with a plus in the Big D. as Black 100's of times
I know what I'm doing there.

I cannot see past the automatic 1.Nbc3 and see what happens.

Black will get play, White may have to give the pawn back to stay on the board.
Then you have to ask yourself why take the pawn in the first place if your
game plan was to give it back if things get dodgy.

That other position you are looking at.

G. Chandler - A. White, Edinburgh Summer Cup, 1980.


Matt Fletcher
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Re: Candidate Moves in this position

Post by Matt Fletcher » Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:49 pm

Thanks for those responding to my position - that's an addition to my chess knowledge as I had no idea it was theory (should have looked it up in Chessbase).

I have to say that looking at the game with no prior knowledge of the line, I just assumed White didn't have quite enough for the material, provided Black was sensible. My suggestions were Be6 or c6 followed by d5 which (now I have looked up the line) appear to be the most played moves. But looking at a couple of the games, White has maybe got slightly more tricks than I thought!

Perhaps a line to play against a human rather than a computer (which is of course the best way to play chess!)

Dan O'Dowd
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Re: Candidate Moves in this position

Post by Dan O'Dowd » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:26 am

Okay, the response across this forum and ChessVideos.tv has been amazing :D Please do hop on across to http://www.chessvideos.tv/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=10949 to read the other half's thoughts and ideas.

Thankyou all for your input! First of all a breakdown of the vote for various moves. The total number of players contributing was 21.

Pobble (CVTV), a US National Master, voted for 1. f3 (4.7%)

My clubmate Jason Maxwell (133) voted for 1. Ne3 (4.7%)

Wildman (CVTV), 1602, voted for 1. Be3 (4.7%)

GM Matthew Turner, 2504 Sarciness (CVTV), 1920, voted for 1. b3 (9.5%)

Clive Blackburn (113) Chris Kreuzer (170) JWhis (CVTV), 1566, FM Ingvar Johannesson, 2330, voted for 1. Be2 (19%)

John Hickman (159), Matt Fletcher (175), Barry Sandercock (135), Ray Sayers (180), Angus French (180), Martin Carpenter (190), Greg Breed (153), Roger de Coverly (193), Fox (CVTV), 1900something, FlintEastwood (CVTV), 1820, ZeitnotAkrobat (CVTV), a German National Master, and Geoff Chandler (2058) voted for 1. Nbc3 (57%)

So we had a clear majority for 1. Nbc3, with many players considering it even if they didn't plump for it in the end. Without being declarative (since I have neither the rating nor the analytical capability) I think we can say that this is the closest to a consensus move, but that the position is open in scope enough that there are a variety of approaches available.

Other moves considered were 1. h3, 1. Bd3, 1. g3


What's highly interesting and heartening to me is to see that between them, two NMs, an FM, and a GM played completely different moves from each other :D Next time I get uber stuck on a position I shall simply remember that and plunge in!

To sate curiosity, here are the moves that led to the aforementioned position. Black was rated 1616 on Playchess at the time.


One person commented, "I wonder what gambit White accepted to end up in this fruitless position", and "White should be able to defend but he can't win". Quite a firm declaration for 10 moves in! Of course this wasn't really a gambit as it turns out. White played the thematic and strong Nb5. My engine tells me I missed a killer with 8. Qa4 or 9. d6, but on move 9 I was having a think for 8-9 minutes. dxe6 At first glance looks counterproductive, accelerating Black's development (and there may well be no justification for this ultimately). I'd been watching the LCC coverage and forgotten that this often leaves my chess a bit strategically airy, leading me to play grander concepts without enough justifying calculation. However, here it seemed that ...Qxd1+ was forced, thus first allowing me to unlink my Knights. Part of my think on dxe6 was also to scan for options in that ensuing position I showed you all. Since I'm a decent player I felt that if I got outplayed from that subsequent position I'd learn something anyways, but while human eyes might see it as a bit ugly (for the obvious development v targets ideas), it seemed perfectly viable to me.

In my pre-thought of 9. dxe6 I automatically saw 11. Nbc3 as being fine for me at the worst case scenario, realising I may have a better move. Perhaps I could have taken a little while longer to verify the realities of other moves than 9. dxe6, since White is approaching a potential turning point position, so if we quell Black's open lines and potential threats that bit earlier we may stamp our authority that much more on the game. Comme ci comme ça!

When it came to the move itself, I considered 1. Nbc3, 1. b3, 1. g3, 1. Ne3, 1. f3, and 1. Be2.

Black's ideas seemed reasonably clear.

a) Get the Nf6 to e5 to pressure my c4 pawn, helping dissuade me from a Kingside fianchetto and putting some feelers out towards d3 as an outpost.

b) Play the Knights to c6, and ...Ne4-c5 to open the Bishop up. Or just play the b8-Knight to c5 too.

As GM Turner and sarciness of CVTV also said, I felt that while 1. Nbc3 was a perfectly good move, 1. b3 would be the positionally desirable move. 1. b3 Nd5 2. cxd5 Bxa1 3. dxe6 is great for White, so that left 1. b3 Ng4 2. Bb2 Bxb2 3. Nxb2 Ne5 which seemed fine if again a little antivisual. 1. b3 Nc6 2. Bb2 Nb4 seemed awkward but on intuition I just said to myself that things would be fine. Perhaps in my best form I would have been able to do some decent calculation on this (or insisted to myself that I do), but I don't think that was necessary.

NM Pobble, ZeitnotAkrobat and FlintEastwood also considered the move I spent a bit of time on; 1. f3. Interestingly though Pobble used it to want to play 2. Kf2, then Bd2-c3 and Ne3. I considered it with 1. f3 and 2. Nf2 (now that really does look like a game of Shatranj), as a counter to the Ng4-e5 reorganisation idea, and to secure d3.

1. g3 with Bg2 would require defence of c4 anyways, predicating b3 first as a higher priority to enable mobility for more pieces (that sounds like computerspeak!)

1. Ne3 seemed undesirable simply because of 1...Bh6, and on this basis alone I rejected it.

1. Bd3 felt like it hung badly in the air, especially considering the natural Knight to e5/c5 plan.

Finally, 1. h3 simply felt too slow.

One of the most interesting pieces of thought came from Sarciness:

"Since I don't see any refutation (I could be wrong!), I play 1.b3 and don't examine the other candidates."

This is the sign of a highly confident player! He like me disregarded the threat of N--c2 as too slow to work.

FM Ingvar Johannesson said, "I would play Be2 instantly in a blitz game, then worry about stuff later. In a longer game I'd first think of Be2 and then check if it was ok vs. Nc6-d4/b4 ideas and then play it." NM ZeitnotAkrobat however felt that 1. Be2 Nc6 2. 0-0 Nd4 would be ceding the Bishop pair with pawn structure damage to come.

For all of you reading, one of the most concise pieces of advice came from Roger de Coverly:

"Over the board, I think you would conserve time on the clock by playing Nb1-c3 quickly and then use your opponent's time to figure out where the other pieces go. If you were playing postal or just analysing the position as a "might arise", you might consider whether the Nb1 needs to go to d2 or a3. If you do decide that the Knight needs to be on d2 or a3, other initial candidate moves have to be considered..."

Engines have a difficult time making something concrete of it too. All of our suggestions are playable though they all seem to prefer Nbc3 as the initial move.

As it was, the game was very scrappy. If you have a nervous chess disposition; look away now :lol: I played 11. b3 Nc6 12. Bb2 Nb4 13. Ne3 0-0 14. Na3 Rad8 15. Nac2 Nc6 16. Be2 Rfe8 17. 0-0 Rd2 18. Rfe1 Nb4 19. Nxb4 Rxb2 20. Nd3 Rd2 21. Nf1 Rc2 22. Bd1 Rc3 23. Nf4 Bf5 24. Rxe8+ Nxe8 25. Nd5 Rd3 26. Rc1 Bh6 27. Nfe3 Kf8 28. Bc2 Rd4 29. Nxf5 gxf5 30. Rd1 Rxd1+ 31. Bxd1 where after both sides missed absolutely loads, White ends up in a very strong endgame. I'll play this one out against my engines and try to show some semblance of technique unlike that embarrassment there :lol:

As an improvement, Houdini suggests 14. Be2 Bf5 15. Nc3 Rfe8 16. Nxf5 gxf5 or instead of Rfe1, 18. Bf3 Ng4 19. Bxg7 Nxe3 20. Nxe3 Kxg7 21. h3 Nb4 22. a3 Nc6.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Candidate Moves in this position

Post by Matthew Turner » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:51 am

Dan et al,
If you are interested in this type of challenge, then if can find old copies of Chess magazine, the Beat the Masters section is excellent.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Candidate Moves in this position

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:56 am

Winding back a couple of moves, did you consider not taking the pawn on e6? There are some similarities to the Icelandic Gambit in the Scandinavian which starts 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. c4 e6 and the Tal Gambit against the Sicilian Grand Prix starting 1. e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3. exd5 Nf6 4. c4 e6 .

While the Icelandic is now considered not quite enough because of what looks an anti-positional development plan by White, the Tal Gambit is still considered OK. Particularly in the Icelandic, there is also the option of not taking the pawn.

On the following move, retaking with the King also comes into consideration. As with Nbc3 it would be part of the plan for developing White's pieces.

In some ways the position two moves earlier, "do you take the pawn" and the previous move " do you retake with the King or Knight" are more committal than Nbc3.

(edit) Having checked with an engine, not taking the pawn on move 9 is the computer recommendation with the no thought Be2 and complex d6 suggested. Taking with the King on move 10 is not liked and assessed as giving Black adequate compensation for the pawn. (/edit)

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Candidate Moves in this position

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:21 pm

It's a real shame that feature died. The sister Bridge magazine still has the logical equivalent and it's fascinating to see how differently people think :) With the chess one, although it did die well before engines got so strong, I guess it'd be rather hard to do properly nowadays.

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