Touching an opponent's piece.

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Robert Stokes
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Touching an opponent's piece.

Post by Robert Stokes » Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:52 pm

I understand from the rules, that if you touch an opponent's piece that you can legally capture, then you must do so. My question relates to the word "touch". Is it regarded as touching if you use a piece of your own to move an opponent's piece but then change your mind? (Of course you will have to move your own piece that you have picked up anyway.)

The situation I have in mind is something like this. Black puts a knight on d4 attacking the white queen on b3. The white player thinks that he can take a black bishop on b4 for free so he lifts his queen and uses it to start nudging the black bishop. He then realises that if he takes the bishop, the black knight can move to c2 (where it is not attacked by any white piece) and fork both king and queen. White will then lose queen for two minor pieces. The white player changes his mind and moves the queen elsewhere.

Two important points. 1) the bishop was only slightly nudged so is still standing on b4 although not as near the centre of it as it was. 2) At no time did any part of the white player's hand touch the black bishop.

Is this covered by the touch rule for opponent's pieces and white must complete the capture? Thank you for your help. I apologise if the answer is obvious, but I have read the relevant rule on the FIDE website and it doesn't seem to be covered.

Robert

P.S. I realise that this won't happen in chess played at a decent level but in the minor sections of congresses in which I play it might happen, especially if a child is involved. I have noticed that young players often use pieces to nudge others that they intend capturing.
Last edited by Robert Stokes on Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Touching an opponent's piece.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:38 pm

This would count as intent to capture the piece and counts as touch-move, IMO. Has there ever been a dispute where someone touches a piece they intend to capture, which can be captured by two or more pieces, and then changed their mind about which piece to capture with? It is, generally, bad etiquette to pause and think during the process of making a move. You should decide on the move, and then make it decisively. But human nature being what it is, it is common to spot a downside to a move while picking up a piece, and then to pause and frantically try and work out if you can get away with another move... If I do this, I put the piece back and apologise - what you shouldn't do is hold the piece in your hand as this means your opponent is unable to analyse the position on the board, as it is missing a piece! (And arguably, it verges on moving pieces around the board and analysing the resulting position - e.g. pick a piece up, move it to one possible destination square, carefully examine the board, change your mind, move to another square, and repeat ad nauseum).

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John Clarke
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Re: Touching an opponent's piece.

Post by John Clarke » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:43 pm

I'd have to agree with Christopher on this. Nudging an opponent's piece, even without making direct contact with your fingers, surely has to count as a "touch-capture".

Here's another twist to the business that was reported in Chess in the late 60s - names have been changed, mainly because I can't remember the real ones. In an ordinary club match, Joe played 1.RxP (it's easier to use descriptive for this). Fred replied 1. ... RxR, whereupon Joe picked up the just-moved enemy rook preparatory to taking it with his queen. Unfortunately he picked up, not the queen, but his own other rook, which was on an adjoining square, and "took" the enemy rook with that.

Fred insisted that Joe's having touched his own rook, thus incurring the obligation to move it, trumped the already-existing requirement to take (legally) the enemy one. Seems incredible nowadays, but somehow or other, Fred's opinion was allowed to carry the day, and Joe naturally resigned, being now a rook down with no compensation.
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David Gostelow
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Re: Touching an opponent's piece.

Post by David Gostelow » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:12 pm

On obscure rules, in the Coventry e2e4 tournament we were told by the arbiter we had committed an offence that one of us should get a time penalty for . I cant remember who though lol. He did not step in because he was not sure he had seen it all , We confirmed he had seen it correctly after the game was finished.

What happened , at the end of the game when we were both pretty short of time ( though on 30 second increments) I promoted a pawn and he immediately took it off . Thing is he was trying to play quickly and it was 100 per cent certain I would of promoted to a queen and as the second I had moved it to the back rank I could see he was already grabbing his piece to take it, I completed my move without actually promoting it to anything . it was just a mutual quick thing . I am sure many people have had this happen in blitz games. Who committed the offence , me for completing the move without promoting the pawn or him for taking the pawn on the 8th rank before it had been promoted or both . I think both would be good and then we could both get an extra 5 mins on the clock ???

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Touching an opponent's piece.

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:22 pm

David Gostelow wrote:What happened , at the end of the game when we were both pretty short of time ( though on 30 second increments) I promoted a pawn and he immediately took it off . Thing is he was trying to play quickly and it was 100 per cent certain I would of promoted to a queen and as the second I had moved it to the back rank I could see he was already grabbing his piece to take it, I completed my move without actually promoting it to anything . it was just a mutual quick thing . I am sure many people have had this happen in blitz games. Who committed the offence , me for completing the move without promoting the pawn or him for taking the pawn on the 8th rank before it had been promoted or both . I think both would be good and then we could both get an extra 5 mins on the clock ???
You've certainly committed an offence - promoting a pawn to nothing is an illegal move, and so your opponent should be given an extra two minutes. Whether your opponent has is less clear in my mind, because it's a playing-on-after-the-whistle situation: play has to be dragged back to your move anyway.

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John Clarke
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Re: Touching an opponent's piece.

Post by John Clarke » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:57 pm

I'd have said David's opponent was the first to commit an offence, insofar as he handled his pieces when it wasn't his turn.

The arbiter seems to me to have exercised some much-needed common sense. It hardly seems worth getting het up about these little niceties of procedure when clearly nobody was trying to pull a fast one, and no permanent illegality was created.
Last edited by John Clarke on Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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(He doesn't let you resign and start again, either.)

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Touching an opponent's piece.

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:08 am

Speaking as the arbiter concerned... :wink:

The only reason I didn't do anything about it was because I wasn't watching that game at the time - I was watching a game on a nearby board, and couldn't see whether or not the promotion was made from the view I had. I suspected it wasn't made correctly. I didn't want to interrupt the game in case I'd got it wrong. As a result, play continued, and I spoke to both players after the game to make sure they knew what happened, and didn't make the same mistake in future. Had I have been clear that I'd seen it, I would have given the two minutes for the illegal move as per the Laws.

There was an incident on a lower board. A player played h8, but didn't press his clock. After about 10 seconds, his opponent played Kxh8. h8 wasn't an illegal move, because white hadn't pressed his clock, so white was still entitled to put a new piece on h8. Given the pawn on h8 was captured, I let the game carry on, and explained to the player who played h8 after the game what would have happened had he pressed the clock. Technically, Black wasn't entitled to play Kxh8, because it wasn't yet his turn to move.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Touching an opponent's piece.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:24 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:Technically, Black wasn't entitled to play Kxh8, because it wasn't yet his turn to move.
That can be a difficult one, as what to do when your opponent forgets to press the clock. For many years it has been my practice to point it out once, but after that it was at my opponent's risk, so I would play my next move when ready and touch the clock button. This doesn't work with increments naturally. Perhaps though you should just sit there until your opponent notices. I've see this happen and it could be considered marginally unsporting, particularly in time pressure. The danger is that those who are sufficiently not there that they don't press the clock are liable to see the clock still running and make another move.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Touching an opponent's piece.

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:32 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:Technically, Black wasn't entitled to play Kxh8, because it wasn't yet his turn to move.
That can be a difficult one, as what to do when your opponent forgets to press the clock. For many years it has been my practice to point it out once, but after that it was at my opponent's risk, so I would play my next move when ready and touch the clock button. This doesn't work with increments naturally. Perhaps though you should just sit there until your opponent notices. I've see this happen and it could be considered marginally unsporting, particularly in time pressure. The danger is that those who are sufficiently not there that they don't press the clock are liable to see the clock still running and make another move.
I'm confident that the player was completely oblivious that his opponent hadn't pressed his clock. When he played Kxh8, he went to press the clock, but gave a confused expression when he saw his attempt to press it had failed, because the lever wasn't up.

Although, pressing the clock doesn't result in entitlement to move. As soon as white put the Queen on h8, Black could have captured it.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Touching an opponent's piece.

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:08 pm

"The only reason I didn't do anything about it was because I wasn't watching that game at the time - I was watching a game on a nearby board, and couldn't see whether or not the promotion was made from the view I had. I suspected it wasn't made correctly. I didn't want to interrupt the game in case I'd got it wrong. As a result, play continued, and I spoke to both players after the game to make sure they knew what happened, and didn't make the same mistake in future. Had I have been clear that I'd seen it, I would have given the two minutes for the illegal move as per the Laws.

There was an incident on a lower board. A player played h8, but didn't press his clock. After about 10 seconds, his opponent played Kxh8. h8 wasn't an illegal move, because white hadn't pressed his clock, so white was still entitled to put a new piece on h8. Given the pawn on h8 was captured, I let the game carry on, and explained to the player who played h8 after the game what would have happened had he pressed the clock. Technically, Black wasn't entitled to play Kxh8, because it wasn't yet his turn to move."

Sounds sensible to me.

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Greg Breed
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Re: Touching an opponent's piece.

Post by Greg Breed » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:17 pm

In a time scramble most players would, when promoting a pawn that they knew would be captured immediately, state what they are promoting to and hit their clock. I don't know if that is against the rules, but if you have seconds remaining, the act of trying to replace the pawn with another piece knowing full well that it will be taken immediately is a needlessly time consuming process that could cost the game and would probably annoy the opponent as well.
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Alex Holowczak
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Re: Touching an opponent's piece.

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:32 pm

Greg Breed wrote:In a time scramble most players would, when promoting a pawn that they knew would be captured immediately, state what they are promoting to and hit their clock. I don't know if that is against the rules, but if you have seconds remaining, the act of trying to replace the pawn with another piece knowing full well that it will be taken immediately is a needlessly time consuming process that could cost the game and would probably annoy the opponent as well.
That is completely against the rules. It is the promoting player's responsibility, and no one else's, to promote a pawn to the piece you want to promote it to.

If you have seconds remaining, and the act of trying to replace the pawn with another piece will consume a lot of your remaining time, then I'm afraid that's tough luck.

If you want to promote to a Queen, and there's no readily available Queen to promote to (e.g. if there's no spare, and the original is on the board), then you could stop the clock and ask the arbiter to get one. A good arbiter will, in that situation, be on hand with a selection of pieces for you to choose from without the need to stop the clock.

Would it annoy the opponent? I don't know. It'd annoy me if it wasn't promoted.