Nimzo-Indian opening.

Technical questions regarding Openings, Middlegames, Endings etc.
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Robert Stokes
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Nimzo-Indian opening.

Post by Robert Stokes » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:01 pm

I have been studying the Nimzo-Indian opening for two reasons.
(a) According to a chess statistics website it has the best average score against 1. d4 at GM level.
(b) It is one of the openings which Hans Berliner says in his book "The Method" that he hasn't fully worked out what white should do after move 3.

In "Batsford Chess Openings 2" page 199 line 2 it gives the following as a line of Spielmann's variation.

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3Nc3 Bb4 4Qb3 c5 5 dxc Nc6 6 Nf3 Ne4 7 Bd2 Nxd2 8 Nxd2 Bxc5

I wonder whether there is a better black move 8 ... Nd4. The knight attacks the white queen which cannot capture the bishop because of the knight forking king and queen on c2. The only safe squares to which it can move are a4 and d1. When it does either of these, black replies Bxc3 which forces bxc3 leaving white with tripled pawns on the c file which I think will be very weak.

Now I readily admit that as a low grade player, there may be something obvious that I have missed, but I have studied the position for quite some time and it looks good to me.

Robert

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Nimzo-Indian opening.

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:04 pm

They may be weak, but trying to actually win one of them and regain your sacrificed pawn is somewhat nontrivial.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Nimzo-Indian opening.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:12 pm

Robert Stokes wrote: When it does either of these, black replies Bxc3 which forces bxc3 leaving white with tripled pawns on the c file which I think will be very weak.
Nd4 has been played a handful of times, but not with the idea of inflicting tripled c pawns. That structure was named the Irish pawn centre and can be very effective. White is after all a pawn up, so you have to demonstrate at least a pawn's worth of compensation.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Nimzo-Indian opening.

Post by Matthew Turner » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:25 pm

I think a problem with your Nd4 line is that it leaves d6 horribly weak eg
.....Nd4
Qa4 Bxc3
bxc3 Nc6
Ne4

Then you have a big problem developing your Bishop. I not sure that you really need an improvement on Bxc5, it all look reasonably sensible and simple

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Nimzo-Indian opening.

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:13 pm

Then again, how often are you likely to get the Spielmann variation these days anyway? :?:
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Nimzo-Indian opening.

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:46 am

Hi Robert.

It excellent that you have your own ideas and question what you see.

I'd be wary of:

" According to a chess statistics website it has the best average score against 1. d4 at GM level."

Forget GM level, at the lower level games are decided on tactical oversights and the two move trick.

Try not to get sucked into general assumptions, doubled, tripled pawns are weak.
Bishops are better than Knights etc...they are guidelines not concrete rules.
Fear of accepting a doubled pawn or chopping a sterile Bishop with a good Knight is very
often the seed of a loss at the lower level.
Matt is right about how often are you going to see an opening variation because again
at the lower level the games tend to leave theory quite early.

(Irish Pawns, I see the gag but I call them Indian Pawns as in Indian File).

If you are still with me Robert then we look at this position from the 2010 British Championship.



How does it look to you?
White has the Bishop and an outside passer.
Black has the exposed King and a doubled pawn.

Here:

http://www.redhotpawn.com/blog/blogread ... gpostid=70

For a full explanation and the continuation.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Nimzo-Indian opening.

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:20 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:Nd4 has been played a handful of times, but not with the idea of inflicting tripled c pawns. That structure was named the Irish pawn centre and can be very effective. White is after all a pawn up, so you have to demonstrate at least a pawn's worth of compensation.
And, of course, a not dissimilar formation is known in the Winawer French - and again can be tricky for Black to play against.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Robert Stokes
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Re: Nimzo-Indian opening.

Post by Robert Stokes » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:55 pm

Thank you for the advice. I'd still fancy my chances as black, even though a pawn down, against a player of my own standard. However, it's probably true that few opponents will play 4 Qb3, I suppose 4 Qc2 is more likely or even 4 a3.

Robert

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Re: Nimzo-Indian opening.

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:49 pm

Hi Robert

I fancy your chances with that attitude, always look on the bright side.
However I don't fancy your chances of you ever seeing it. You are wasting your time.

I have a DB of 2½ million games played by under 1800 players.

4.Qb3 has been played 298 times.
4.Bd2 has been played 4,026 times.

In the MegaDB dating from the year dot.

4.Qb3 970 times
4.Bd2 2,026 times. (with a very healthy looking Black plus score.)

So you have more chance of seeing 4.Bd2 than 4.Qb3
(what does Batsford Chess Openings 2 say about 4.Bd2?)
.
Petrosian played 4.Bd2 in his 1974 match with Portisch, Donald Byrne writes:

"This very rare moves carries caution to the height of timidity - Which makes it eminently suitable for Petrosian."

The games was drawn in 22 moves.

Personally I would close 'Batsford Chess Openings 2' , drop it on the floor and kick it under the bed.
It's not going to do you any good at all. Get tooled up tactically, ths is where your points will come from.

Before I go, remember my under 1800 DB. 3.a3 has been played 2,841 times.



So there is more chance of you NOT seeing a Nimzo Indian than there is of you seeing 4.Qb3 or 4.Bd2.

At the lower levels it's basic technique and tactical prowess not opening theory that will win you games.

Robert Stokes
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Re: Nimzo-Indian opening.

Post by Robert Stokes » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:14 pm

Interesting that 4 Bd2 is played so often. I have another book which says that this move is not much use.

After 4 Bd2 Bxc3 5 Bxc3 Ne4 (and 6 ... Nc6 if the white bishop moves to b4 or a5) black can exchange knight for bishop and restore material balance.

Robert

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Nimzo-Indian opening.

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:25 pm

Hi Robert

It's not much use, the point is looking at GM opening theory when not
at the level is not much use either. Infact it's totally pointless.

Learn the trade and your board craft by hacking and saccing,
you will pick up loads of other things and good ideas on the way.
Your chess opening rep will find you, you cannot choose it from a book.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Nimzo-Indian opening.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:13 am

Geoff Chandler wrote: Your chess opening rep will find you, you cannot choose it from a book.
True, but I think only up to a point. Knowing the moves chosen by GMs is very useful particularly if they don't all choose the same. After 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4, the popular choices have varied over time, but weighting current and historic games equally in descending order of popularity it goes 4. e3, 4. Qc2, 4. Nf3, 4. f3, 4. Bg5, 4. a3, 4. Bd2, 4. g3, 4.Qb3 . The recent trend is to prefer Qc2.

I don't think Berliner's attempt to solve chess by vague appeals to general principles has much practical value.

Robert Stokes
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Re: Nimzo-Indian opening.

Post by Robert Stokes » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:27 am

I don't think this thread needs extending except to explain why I follow Berliner's advice where possible. That is his record of games won, drawn, lost. His performance in the 1965 ICCC was 12 wins and 4 draws, a far higher winning margin than ever before. The most important point, to my mind, is that if anyone can work out the best move in any situation then it should be a correspondence player because of the time they have at their disposal. Consequently, although I don't understand much of the early chapters in his book, I try to use his moves in the openings shown near the back.

Robert

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Nimzo-Indian opening.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:40 pm

Robert Stokes wrote: I try to use his moves in the openings shown near the back.
I don't believe there is anything demonstrably wrong with his recommendations. But be very cautious about accepting that if your opponent plays an idea dismissed as bad for some nebulous reason, that it is actually so.

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John Clarke
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Re: Nimzo-Indian opening.

Post by John Clarke » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:35 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:Before I go, remember my under 1800 DB. 3.a3 has been played 2,841 times.
With what results for each colour?

(BTW, did you set out deliberately to accumulate all those sub-1800 games, or did it just sort of happen?)
"The chess-board is the world ..... the player on the other side is hidden from us ..... he never overlooks a mistake, or makes the smallest allowance for ignorance."
(He doesn't let you resign and start again, either.)

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