1. d4 Nf6 2. f3

Technical questions regarding Openings, Middlegames, Endings etc.
Niall Doran
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1. d4 Nf6 2. f3

Post by Niall Doran » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:56 pm

Just been paired for a game tomorrow against an opponent who plays this opening, and nothing else, as White (I have the black pieces against him). The idea seems to be to follow up (after 2. f3 d5) with 3. e4 and if 3…dxe then 4. fxe Nxe4 and White has a lot of pressure for the pawn, or so it seems to me. How should Black play this line, or should he avoid it altogether?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:16 pm

Niall Doran wrote: The idea seems to be to follow up (after 2. f3 d5) with 3. e4 and if 3…dxe then 4. fxe Nxe4 and White has a lot of pressure for the pawn, or so it seems to me. How should Black play this line, or should he avoid it altogether?
The normal approach after 3. .. dxe4 would be 4. Nc3 which is the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit. The minority who play it believe in it and there's lots of books trying to make it work. One tip is that if you expect Blackmar-Diemar is to play 1. .. d5 instead of 1. .. Nf6. You can then meet 2. e4 dxe4 3. f3 with either e5 or c5 exploiting the blocking pawn and hole created by the f3 move.

If his gambit is indeed to play 3. e4 dxe4 4. fxe4 Nxe4, I think you (and perhaps your computer engine in preparation) are on your own. It's been played before, but only in events like the Austrian under 8.

By the way if 5. Bd3, I hope you spot that 5. .. Qxd4 isn't possible. Neither player appeared to notice this in one of the recorded games.

5. .. Nf6 has been played, which can transpose back into more normal looking Blackmar positions.

It's a standard dilemma. You know, or at least consider your opponent's pet opening dubious. Do you take it on with the intention of trying to refute it with the danger that he will be more familiar with the resulting positions? Or do you just avoid it entirely? It might not be the case with the Diemar, but you can find that the "experts in the opening" don't always know the theory main line that well, because almost everyone avoids it.

Ian Kingston
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Re: 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3

Post by Ian Kingston » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:19 pm

There is an ongoing series of articles in BCM about the Blackmar-Diemer (July, August, September, with more to come - but taking a break in October) written by Alan Dommett. Entertaining stuff in its own right and very useful if you either play that opening or might have to face it.

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3

Post by Carl Hibbard » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:29 pm

Niall Doran wrote:Just been paired for a game tomorrow against an opponent who plays this opening, and nothing else, as White (I have the black pieces against him). The idea seems to be to follow up (after 2. f3 d5) with 3. e4 and if 3…dxe then 4. fxe Nxe4 and White has a lot of pressure for the pawn, or so it seems to me. How should Black play this line, or should he avoid it altogether?
2...... c5

Leads to an eventual 0-1 :P
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

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Rob Thompson
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Re: 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3

Post by Rob Thompson » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:36 pm

My instinct here would be to play 2. ... c5 also. You don't need to smash slightly naff moves off the board - often you can just have a comfortable game by playing fairly normally.
True glory lies in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:57 pm

I meet this a few times in blitz and by chance have a game ongoing at the moment.

After: 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3 d5 3. e4


In blitz I've been playing 3...e5



With some nice messy positions in which I've managed to often cheap out a win.

The test is 4.dxe5 Nxe4



5.dxe4 meets 5...Qh5+ so 5.Bb5+ to give the King some running room on f1 after fxe4.



Here you can play 5...c6 or the full bloodied piece sac 5....Bd7.

Such play got me loads of wins OTB (and 100% losses in the analysis room.)
Just sit down and hack away. You will get a blunder...trust me.
GM's in the analysis room normal bod chess players during the game.

Roger is correct that your opponent will know more about the position
than you even if you computer says you are OK.
Personally I think your opponent has a huge plus before a pawn has been pushed
because you are clearly worried about what he will play.
It should be the reverse.
You are making it harder for you to impose your will on the game.

The Blackmar:

Screw them up with:

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 e3



Then do a double fianchetto starting with b6 to grip on e4.
The lad will often refrain from pushing f3-f4 so the g1 Knight will start moaning.
Once you have the lad listening to his pieces moaning you are on your way
to a good game.

Good Luck.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:27 pm

Carl Hibbard wrote: 2...... c5
The original poster has to be willing to play a Benoni or similar after 3. d5

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3

Post by Carl Hibbard » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:51 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Carl Hibbard wrote: 2...... c5
The original poster has to be willing to play a Benoni or similar after 3. d5
Which of course you would after the silly probably now wasted f3 move.
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

Ray Sayers

Re: 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3

Post by Ray Sayers » Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:09 pm

It really depends on your style of play.

If you don't care about the gambit, play 2....d5
If you are a KID/Pirc player, play 2...g6 and 3... d6
If you like Benoni/Benko type games, play 2....c5
If you are a solid 1. e4 e5 player, how about 2...d6 followed by 3. e4 Nbd7 and 4.... e5

I think you just have to look on it more as a case of 'well, white has take away his Nf3 options' rather than get worried.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:16 pm

Carl Hibbard wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Carl Hibbard wrote: 2...... c5
The original poster has to be willing to play a Benoni or similar after 3. d5
Which of course you would after the silly probably now wasted f3 move.
Hmmm, setups involving a White f3 are quite common against the Benoni, I thought?
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Niall Doran
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Re: 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3

Post by Niall Doran » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:39 am

Carl Hibbard wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Carl Hibbard wrote: 2...... c5
The original poster has to be willing to play a Benoni or similar after 3. d5
Which of course you would after the silly probably now wasted f3 move.
Don't know a thing about the Benoni. Will just play my usual game with g6, no point getting dragged out of my usual set-up and into something my opponent has a lot of experience with. Having a quick look seems to suggest no particular advantage for Black or White after White takes the centre.

Geoff's lines look like fun, but I couldn't in all conscience play lines I know are dodgy. Sorry Geoff!

Will let you all know how I get on. This crowd-sourced prep is the future! :lol:

Geoff Chandler
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Re: 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:51 pm

"....but I couldn't in all conscience play lines I know are dodgy."

Every move except Checkmate is dodgy.

I see your opponent on the other unofficical ECF site is asking for suggestions what to play against you.

The crowd there are pushing for 1.e4. They have found an incredible hole in your KP defence.

Good Luck.

Niall Doran
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Re: 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3

Post by Niall Doran » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:29 pm

Hi all!

Guess what? My opponent (I had black for those tuning in late) played something else:



Although he did manage to get f3 in, so I'd say he was happy enough. Luckily I didn't spend too much time prepping!

I'm a little ashamed of the short draw, but there were extenuating circumstances. I waited over 40 minutes after the start time for my opponent to arrive (default time of one hour) before thinking that maybe somebody would have his number and could ring him. So I got someone to ring him, and he turned up just in time. However this all played with my nerves, so I couldn't really focus on the game, so when he offered a draw in time-trouble on move 20, I gladly accepted it. His position seems a lot easier to play with the open g-file and his rooks ready to come in.