Suitable defence for average club player against 1. d4?

[Jon Mahony]

But is the reason for this, because it’s terrible? A bloke of similar grade to me, plays it at LCC and seems to get pretty good positions.

I wouldn't exactly say it's terrible, but you have to be able to enjoy long battles with blocked pawn chains.

In terms of theory it's about how and when to make or prevent pawn breaks rather more than exact tactical sequences. At the risk of being thumped every so often by someone who knows exact theory, the Modern Benoni remains a weapon for playing to win with Black as also does the Kings Indian.

Yeah, I've seen a few of Pete McCarron's games (the guy in my club who has been playing it) The whole center seems locked, and the game is taking place on the Kingside - Pete seems fond of pushing his H-pawn in these positions. It does look like it could stagnate, with hands shaken without so much as a pawn coming off, but if someone goes for the Lasker variation in the QGD, that happens too (just after a lot of trades).

[Jonathan Bryant]

Of course for both of these options I need something against 2.Nf3 - but I suppose I could just play 2…d5 there for the moment. I don’t mind playing against the Colle / London / Tore stuff ...

What would you do against 1 d4 Nf6, 2 Nf3 d5, 3 c4?

[Jon Mahony]

[quote="Jon Mahony"
Of course for both of these options I need something against 2.Nf3 - but I suppose I could just play 2…d5 there for the moment. I don’t mind playing against the Colle / London / Tore stuff ...

What would you do against 1 d4 Nf6, 2 Nf3 d5, 3 c4?[/quote]

Just head back in to the lines of the QGD I already know 3...e6 Most 2. Nf3 players want a Colle / London though.

[Jonathan Bryant]

... Most 2. Nf3 players want a Colle / London though.

Depends on your usual pool of opponents, I suppose, but I’m pretty sure this is not true of the people I play.

This is why I chose as Black not to go in for anything that could get move-ordered by White playing Nf3 before c2-c4. If you’re going to play something else when they do, why not just play that something else all the time?

[Jon Mahony]

... Most 2. Nf3 players want a Colle / London though.

Depends on your usual pool of opponents, I suppose, but I’m pretty sure this is not true of the people I play.

This is why I chose as Black not to go in for anything that could get move-ordered by White playing Nf3 before c2-c4. If you’re going to play something else when they do, why not just play that something else all the time?

Well you can’t get into a Czech Benoni or a Tango after 2.Nf3 but yes I do see your point, Ideally I want something where the 2 moves are nearly interchangeable, though aside from the KID or the Dutch (the first way too much theory for me, the latter too risky) I can’ t really think of anything.

I suppose what I’m saying is, I’m happy to play a QGD but it is very drawish - for the moment however, while I study up, I may be happy to get some sharp games and some which go back into a QGD.

Maybe learning two separate openings is a waste of time, and I should just bite the bullet and learn the Kings indian - I would imagine any KID player is happy to see 2.Nf3 as it negates the Samisch and the 4 pawn, which look to be whites scarier tries.

[IM Jack Rudd]

You can't get into any sort of Benoni if white doesn't meet ...c5 with d5. 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 d6 and 4...e5 looks like a way into a Czech Benoni, if that's really the way you want to go.

[Paul Dargan]

@ Jack - as an occassional Czech-benoni player (rather like Miles used to say every now and then I foget how bad it is and play it again), the move order you suggest (1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 d6 and 4...e5) I find a poor Schmid Benoni ... with White not committed to c4 and knight ends-up there very quickly and Bb5+ can be annoying too.

If White is goingto play 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 then I think 3. ...b5!? is the way to go. Against an unprepared White you get a great verion of a Benoni and the critical 4. Bg5 Qb6 has a good reputation for Black too.

Paul

[Jon Mahony]

You can't get into any sort of Benoni if white doesn't meet ...c5 with d5. 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 d6 and 4...e5 looks like a way into a Czech Benoni, if that's really the way you want to go.

Very true Jack, I’d more or less taken d5 as read though, what would you say other candidate moves for white are there? Surly dxc5 can’t be that good?

If White is going to play 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 then I think 3. ...b5!? is the way to go. Against an unprepared White you get a great verion of a Benoni and the critical 4. Bg5 Qb6 has a good reputation for Black too

Yes, I’ve been having a look at 3.b5 as a possibility, I’ve heard there is a new DVD out about the line but I can’t find anything online. It does seem to make a lot of sense stopping c4.

[Roger de Coverly]

I’d more or less taken d5 as read though, what would you say other candidate moves for white are there? Surly dxc5 can’t be that good?

In order of popularity after 3. d5, the moves are 3. e3, 3. c3, 3. c4, 3. g3 and 3. dxc5 .

It depends what direction White wants to take. From a Black viewpoint, I would prefer to play 2. .. c5 if I think my opponent is a Torre or London player. It avoids having to declare at move 2 whether you intend to defend with .. g6 or .. e6. Allowing the Benoni is a risk, particularly when they can play Nc3 instead of c4.

So some of the available transpositions

3. e3 - Colle or Queens Gambit Declined, Semi Tarrasch
3. c3 - Torre or London, possibly Colle in its reverse Slav form.
3. c4 - English with ..c5
3. g3 - English again or something resembling a Gruenfeld reversed
4. dxc5 - reversed Queens Gambit Accepted, but non-mainstream territory.

[IM Jack Rudd]

3. e3 - Colle or Queens Gambit Declined, Semi Tarrasch

And also Caro-Kann, which might be useful if that's your defence against 1.e4: 3...cxd4 4.exd4 d5,

[Jonathan Bryant]

I’d more or less taken d5 as read though, what would you say other candidate moves for white are there?

Not so much a candidate move but a general approach: develop your pieces and don’t push d4-d5.

This is how I tend to go against early ... c5 set-ups from Black, anyway. My feeling being that Black wants you to push on so why not do something else?

This, btw, is also why I shelved the Benko and Benoni as Black after a brief flirtation with both many moons ago. It simply dawned on me that Whte doesn’t have to be co-operative and head into the position types that I wanted to play.

[Paul Dargan]

Yes, I’ve been having a look at 3.b5 as a possibility, I’ve heard there is a new DVD out about the line but I can’t find anything online. It does seem to make a lot of sense stopping c4.

Ramirex discusses the b5 options on his CBFT DVD on the Benko - It might be a 2 DVD pak, I'm not sure as I borrowed a friends copy as I just wanted to check a couple of lines ...

Paul

[Jon Mahony]

Wow, just shows how naive I’ve been about this Nf3 c5 thing, I’d taken a cursory look and assumed c3 and e3 were rather passive, but yes I can see now there are dozens of ways for white to be awkward and steer the game into positions they like! Think it would be less trouble to go for the KID, the theory on this is mounting up now too. Don’t think I’ll ever get my head round this game

Cheers for the info Paul, will have a word with my mate who seems to have every Chess DVD published, and see if I can get a lend of the Ramirex stuff.

[Matt Mackenzie]

Wow, just shows how naive I’ve been about this Nf3 c5 thing, I’d taken a cursory look and assumed c3 and e3 were rather passive, but yes I can see now there are dozens of ways for white to be awkward and steer the game into positions they like! Think it would be less trouble to go for the KID, the theory on this is mounting up now too. Don’t think I’ll ever get my head round this game

Cheers for the info Paul, will have a word with my mate who seems to have every Chess DVD published, and see if I can get a lend of the Ramirex stuff.

As once said by Alekhine "many of us have become chess masters, but no one is or will ever be the master of chess".

And that is what makes it so great, at the end of the day

[Jonathan Bryant]

Ideally I want something where the 2 moves are nearly interchangeable, though aside from the KID or the Dutch (the first way too much theory for me, the latter too risky) I can’ t really think of anything.

Did you make a definite choice yet? If not I wonder if the World Champion’s recent games might have something to offer. Today a Dutch against Anand. If not too risky against a recently deposed World Champ then surely not too risky for club chessers. And if not why not 1 ... g6? Aim for a Modern with similar positions to a KID but less theory intensive.