Suitable defence for average club player against 1. d4?

Technical questions regarding Openings, Middlegames, Endings etc.
Nick Grey
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Re: Suitable defence for average club player against 1. d4?

Post by Nick Grey » Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:22 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:"Another thing to remember with the Benko is that club players will often decline it (often with "non book" moves like 4 b3 and 4 e3)"

and a lot of people decline it on move 3 with Nf3 or dxc5 e.g., not that either move worries black.
As for the average club player (moi) against an above average player - Kevin - the reply to 3Nf3 is cxd4. 4Nxd4 then e5! A way to get a player out of their comfort zone & in a position where over 10 boards that our bottom boards were all playing for wins knowing that we were likely to lose most of the top 5. Was some while back.

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Jon Mahony
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Re: Suitable defence for average club player against 1. d4?

Post by Jon Mahony » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:55 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:Some quite effective Colle - Z players (comfortably strong enough for opens) round Yorkshire too :)
The Colle-Z is brilliant (not lost a long-play game with it in something like 2 years) if black allows you into it. Sadly after 3.e3 Bf5 is a lot more common and you have to go in for the frankly dull 4.c4 and Qb3 Slav stuff (managed to grind a win out of that at Preston this weekend, but black always looks equal or a little better to me by move 15 (assuming they haven’t fallen for any traps).

I’ve been having a look at the London System recently, as I quite like the look of the lines after 1…d5, white plays 2.Bf4 and delays Nf3 hoping that black will offer the trade of dark squared Bishops and then he can go f4 and get a stonewall without the bad Bishop. The lines against the Kings Indian look a lot more promising too, I’ve found the Barry / 150 attack which I have been playing, come up short against anyone over 130 - in fact I can’t remember the last time I was allowed into the 150, everyone knows to play 3…d5.

From the black side I have come across to Rodger's way of thinking that players with grading improvement aspirations need to abandon 1…d5, I have been having a look at the Czech Benoni, just need something against 2.Nf3 and I hate the Kings Indian proper from both sides - I always seem to get done over with it when playing against it, and can never seem to get much when I try it as black :?
"When you see a good move, look for a better one!" - Lasker

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Suitable defence for average club player against 1. d4?

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:02 pm

If you want to stick with 1.......d5, play the QGA :wink:
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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Jon Mahony
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Re: Suitable defence for average club player against 1. d4?

Post by Jon Mahony » Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:28 am

Matt Mackenzie wrote:If you want to stick with 1.......d5, play the QGA :wink:
I like to have some control of the centre :wink: Na in all fairness it’s a perfectly respectable choice, but not my cup of tea
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Phil Neatherway
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Re: Suitable defence for average club player against 1. d4?

Post by Phil Neatherway » Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:40 am

If you play the QGA, you still have to be prepared for 2. Nf3 and even 2. e3.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Suitable defence for average club player against 1. d4?

Post by MartinCarpenter » Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:00 am

That's the thing - you really won't make a die hard Colle/London player commit in the center whatever you do, so there's a very real argument for sitting on it yourself :)

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Suitable defence for average club player against 1. d4?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:42 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:That's the thing - you really won't make a die hard Colle/London player commit in the center whatever you do, so there's a very real argument for sitting on it yourself
If you play the Kings Indian, you don't have to take much notice of the Colle. If not and would like to accept or decline the Queens Gambit, then you are going to get 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. e3 . Ambitious practical choices for Black's third moves are .. Bg4 and .. c5, with the aim of turning the board round and playing White's moves in the QGD. Works of theory on the Colle suggest challenging this immediately with 4. h3 and 4. c4 respectively although I would have though both moves take the player of White out of his Colle comfort zone. Another idea is 3. .. g6 with an aim of transposing towards a Grunfeld.

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Jon Mahony
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Re: Suitable defence for average club player against 1. d4?

Post by Jon Mahony » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:51 pm

Phil Neatherway wrote:If you play the QGA, you still have to be prepared for 2. Nf3 and even 2. e3.
2. e3 hoping for the Stonewall attack can be met with the same Anti-Colle move 2…Bf5 - more or less goes into the same thing, just Nf3 and Nf6 haven’t been played.

The c3 Colle, Colle-Z and stonewall all basically have the same attacking / Greek gift sac ideas. But the Colle-Z is the most flexible in my opinion because the dark squared Bishop actually serves a purpose in the opening, by holding up the centre - also in some lines it becomes freed and can take the f6 knight or sac on the kingside to deliver mate, though I’ve found the majority of my opponents play an early c5 and dxc5 to fix the centre and the Bishop along with it, it usually needs rerouting later.
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Jon Mahony
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Re: Suitable defence for average club player against 1. d4?

Post by Jon Mahony » Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:31 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:Ambitious practical choices for Black's third moves are .. Bg4
If black is going to move the light squared Bishop before e6, I do prefer it when they go to g4 rather than f5 - White can play the same c4 Qb3 idea, but usually nab himself a pawn (5…Bxf3, Qxb7) or alternatively black is going to lose a tempo or the Bishop pair if they defend the b-pawn and allow Ne5 - if they have defended with pawn with b6, the Knight on e5 also adds some tactics to any checks on b5 with the bishop or Queen. I’ve had opponents unfamiliar with the position have their whole Queenside fall apart for nothing more than a couple of hits on the Queen.
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MartinCarpenter
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Re: Suitable defence for average club player against 1. d4?

Post by MartinCarpenter » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:08 pm

Oh, you go c4 then. Flexible thinking there :)
(To be fair white doesn't get worse than the Nf3/e3 Slav defenses from sundry WC matches etc.).

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Suitable defence for average club player against 1. d4?

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:52 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
MartinCarpenter wrote:That's the thing - you really won't make a die hard Colle/London player commit in the center whatever you do, so there's a very real argument for sitting on it yourself
If you play the Kings Indian, you don't have to take much notice of the Colle. If not and would like to accept or decline the Queens Gambit, then you are going to get 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. e3 . Ambitious practical choices for Black's third moves are .. Bg4 and .. c5, with the aim of turning the board round and playing White's moves in the QGD. Works of theory on the Colle suggest challenging this immediately with 4. h3 and 4. c4 respectively although I would have though both moves take the player of White out of his Colle comfort zone. Another idea is 3. .. g6 with an aim of transposing towards a Grunfeld.
IMO an early .....g6 works OK for Black against most non Queens Gambit set ups after 1d4 d5 - and some White players do not handle it all that well.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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Jon Mahony
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Re: Suitable defence for average club player against 1. d4?

Post by Jon Mahony » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:38 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:Oh, you go c4 then. Flexible thinking there :)
(To be fair white doesn't get worse than the Nf3/e3 Slav defenses from sundry WC matches etc.).
Yeah, against 3…Bf5 c4, Qb3, Nc3, Bd7, cxd5 and Rc1 (black defends with some c6, e6, Qc7 and Bd6 or e7) if they don’t fall for any tactics with ideas like Nb5 forking the Queen and Bishop and then winning the b7 pawn. It’s time to admit defeat and play Be2 and castles kingside. As you say standard Slav stuff, but very dull, and I feel black usually gets better placed Bishops.

Nigel Davies suggests an alternative plan of chasing the Bishop on f5 to g7 with the Knights, but I’ve found even though white wins the Bishop pair after the h rook is opened up there is nowhere safe to castle really.

I’ve found all available DVD’s on the Colle have very short chapters on this line, and skirt around it some what. It’s pretty much only Zuke Em’ and Palliser’s book that give you some interesting ideas :)
"When you see a good move, look for a better one!" - Lasker

JustinHadi

Re: Suitable defence for average club player against 1. d4?

Post by JustinHadi » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:12 pm

Chigorin is a good opening for hacking with Black.

Here is a nice crush of the KID without knowing much theory for White.


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Jon Mahony
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Re: Suitable defence for average club player against 1. d4?

Post by Jon Mahony » Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:42 pm

What do we think of the Czech Benoni as a viable defence to 1.d4? I want to stop answering 1.d5 soon, and start playing for wins as black. Don’t want any Yellow-Page sized KID books in front of me - so it is a toss up between some sort of Benoni or the Black Knights Tango. I’m attracted to the Czech Benoni, because there doesn’t seem to be a lot of theory out there (one Andrew Martin DVD and NY Chess legend Asa Hoffman has just released a book about it). But is the reason for this, because it’s terrible? A bloke of similar grade to me, plays it at LCC and seems to get pretty good positions.

Of course for both of these options I need something against 2.Nf3 - but I suppose I could just play 2…d5 there for the moment. I don’t mind playing against the Colle / London / Tore stuff, I’ve used all of them as white and know some of the more annoying black try’s.
"When you see a good move, look for a better one!" - Lasker

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Suitable defence for average club player against 1. d4?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:15 pm

Jon Mahony wrote: But is the reason for this, because it’s terrible? A bloke of similar grade to me, plays it at LCC and seems to get pretty good positions.
I wouldn't exactly say it's terrible, but you have to be able to enjoy long battles with blocked pawn chains.

In terms of theory it's about how and when to make or prevent pawn breaks rather more than exact tactical sequences. At the risk of being thumped every so often by someone who knows exact theory, the Modern Benoni remains a weapon for playing to win with Black as also does the Kings Indian.