All dressed up and nowhere to go...

Technical questions regarding Openings, Middlegames, Endings etc.
Peter Webber
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All dressed up and nowhere to go...

Post by Peter Webber » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:06 pm

As I am an inexperienced player, I have attempted to learn the Scandinavian (Centre Counter) Defence because, as the author of Modern Chess Openings puts it "... it is easy to play, and easy to learn." The people I play do not play (or know) chess openings, and do not reply 2 exd5 after 1 e4 d5. I have had 2 Nc3 and d3 as the usual replies. I find I am now losing games because there is no reference in MCO (14th edition) as to what to do against these unusual replies. So much for studying; what is the point in learning an opening if it can't be played against, has this particular one now been refuted? It's very difficult when you begin to have to learn an opening plus the rules of rapid development and central control, how's it done?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: All dressed up and nowhere to go...

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:41 pm

Peter Webber wrote: I find I am now losing games because there is no reference in MCO (14th edition) as to what to do against these unusual replies.
Computer databases make books like MCO obsolete if you need to research relatively rare moves.

Try http://database.chessbase.com/js/apps/database/

This has 1136 games with 2. Nc3 and 800 with 2. d3.

You use it as a tree though, if you are just looking for ideas that have been previously tried.

Picking the most frequent response as "the main line" gives

1. e4 d5 2. Nc3 c6 which probably just transposes back to a Caro -Kann

A less popular but more original idea would be 1. e4 d5 2. Nc3 d4 3. Nce2 e5 4. Ng3 Be6 5. Nf3 f6

Against 2. d3, if you like endings, just trade the queens. Otherwise 2. .. e6 and 2. ..c6 are popular, but just transpose to the French and Caro. 2. .. Nf6 is a line from the Alekhine. So the exchange line could go

1. e4 d5 2. d3 dxe4 3. dxe4 e5 4. Qxd8 Qxd8 5. Bc4

From a White point of view, even players who know all known openings will sometimes seek to avoid the Scandinavian if they don't have anything concrete to do against main lines.

Memorising exact sequences of moves isn't really what knowing openings is about. Rather it's about where and when to develop pieces, control space with pawns and the tactical threats that result.

The Scandinavian is related to the Caro Kann and the Alekhine and to a limited extent the French. Your off-beat opponents may themselves be trying to transpose back to something they know better.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: All dressed up and nowhere to go...

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:24 pm

Hi Peter,

" So much for studying; what is the point in learning an opening...."

You are not studying or learning an opening you are memorising opening moves.
MCO - BCO - ECO - NCO are reference guides and in my opinion totally useless to anyone.
(except lazy writers. They do a quick consult and add - 'end of theory')

You get columns of moves with no explanation as to the why and in 90%
of the cases the game stops and you are left without a clue what has happened or
what is about to about to happen.

And I'm sorry Roger but for lads starting out opening databases are just as bad.
They tell the student of the game nothing except someone else much stronger than you played this.

"... it is easy to play, and easy to learn."

No opening is 'easy to play and easy to learn.' Chess is not that narrow.

After 1.e4 d5 2.d4!


You are already at a major junction where the game can go into a (just to name three lines):
French 2...e6
Caro Kann - 2...c6
Blackmar Gambit 2...dxe5 3.Nc3 and 4.f3.

You need to look at the games you lost and find out how to improve from there.
Your weakness will not be a lack of opening knowledge but most likely tactics
and missing good tactical opportunities.
Easily cured, Tactics can be learned. Tactical foresight is not a gift.
You just need to put some effort in. It will bear fruit.

At your level get beefed up on tactics first, you need the ability to survive and
spot two move tricks.

Post one or two games, this place is chocked full of good players and very
often the advice they give is spot on.

Openigs:

If you can, get yourself a 'systems book'. one that will give you a set opening rep.
They go into much greater detail about the moves you are making and point out
all the tricks, traps, blunders and pitfalls you associate with this opening.

Something like.an 'Opening Repertoire for the Attacking Player' by Keene and Levy.
There is a 'Gambiteer' series by Nigel Davies 'A hard hitting chess opening repertoire for both White and Black.'

Some of the other lads on here will suggest a few that helped them.

"MCO - BCO - ECO - NCO are reference guides and in my opinion totally useless to anyone. "

Last time I picked up a 2nf hand BCO I put it on E-Bay for 10p with a sever warning.
'Do not buy it, it is naff.'........someone bought it.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: All dressed up and nowhere to go...

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:30 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote: And I'm sorry Roger but for lads starting out opening databases are just as bad.
They tell the student of the game nothing except someone else much stronger than you played this.
I disagree. For someone lost in a thicket of openings, just knowing what the candidate moves are goes some way. The idea is that that you post mortem your own game by reference to the tree. That's particularly helpful if you can recall your own thoughts.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: All dressed up and nowhere to go...

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:31 pm

Hi Roger,

Disagree if you want but in this case I know I'm right.

The lad is blaming 2.d3 and 2.Nc3 for losing a game of chess.
The reason why he lost came later and consulting a bland opening book
or following some tree (which was cut down on move 2) is not helping.

I've encountered this problem many times over the years.

Someone has given him bad or lazy advice. "Get an MCO."

I've replied with the tried and trusted 'Tactics, Tactics, Tactics.'
But we have all seen this advice given by so many good players in the past
(probably yourself included) and I have have played some of the most ridulous
opening moves ever seen and won due to my tactical ability.

So all I can give is the same advice from better players and my own experience.

Believe me if anyone had found a better method of improving than studying basic tactics.
(and basic endgame technique.) they would be very rich indeed.

The lad is not yet at the level where vast amounts of opening knowledge
are required to hold an edge. Our job is to undo this natural yet unhealthy
fear of openings and the need to memorise everything'

Let's get him pointed in a better and trusted direction.

If he is getting himself in such a tizz over moves like 2.d3 and 2.Nc3 v 1...d5
that he feels the need to post on here, then the sooner the better.

It's up to him if he willing to put some hours in studying tactics.

But I know you, I even travelled all the way to Glasgow just to meeet you.
You will not admit you are wrong. Telling a toothless player to go a
database won't help. He needs to sharpen his claws.

So you show me a move you picked up from any database that helped score you a win
and (remember I have hundreds of your games at my finger tips) for every one you show
me I'll show a win of yours based on a tactic that had nothig to do with any opening.
Very possibly from any game you offer to back up your database theory.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: All dressed up and nowhere to go...

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:15 pm

At age 11 MCO version 10 was published and my school managed to get a discount on the published price. How my mouth watered at those many columns of neat moves! How this was the answer to all my needs! Yes I would buy it! Yes I would be world champion!

"No it's not right for you" said Mark Horton. Try Reuben Fine's "Ideas behind the Chess Openings". But no, I wouldn't have it. I wanted those lovely columns to learn off by heart. And I bought it. After each game I played I looked up what I had played and the greatest achievement was to have stayed within the variations enumerated in my MCO (well, for at least a few moves anyway). I remember one day sitting down to learn the French - well the Winawer - well a tiny bit of the Winawer - it was just too much. But as Peter complains, my wretched opponents hadn't done the work at all and kept on deviating. It just wasn't fair. In the end I bought the Reuben Fine. Both books are still on the shelf and I sometimes still read sections of the Fine...

I wasn't alone in this hopeless approach. I think it was John Saunders in his article about Chess in the 1960 showed how common an approach mine was in the young. If you're reading John, say hello to Mark for me (traitor though he be!)

So I'm certainly not with Roger. It doesn't work. It's too overwhelming. And it's no good knowing the candidate moves without any idea about what makes them different and what they are trying to do. Words are needed.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: All dressed up and nowhere to go...

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:51 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
So you show me a move you picked up from any database that helped score you a win
and (remember I have hundreds of your games at my finger tips) for every one you show
me I'll show a win of yours based on a tactic that had nothig to do with any opening.
Very possibly from any game you offer to back up your database theory.
Most of my wins involve plugging away in an equal position until I get a chance to strike.

I've been looking at the main line of the Tarrasch recently. Here's a game from last weekend.



Precedents are
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1106845
and other similar games from the 1969 match.

and also (for the Nxe6 + f4 idea) something from the 1983 Smyslov-Kasparov match.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1070098

The key point is that opportunities for favourable tactics just don't arise unless you have a decent position and if you don't come up with moves that at least maintain a balance, you will be toast.

During the game I half recalled an old one of mine from 1969 (!) when I had the Black pieces.



Personally I now believe that Black should avoid the tabiya at moves 8/9 by taking on c4 at some stage. There is an alternative move in 9. .. c4 which was advocated in a relatively recent book and is played by a few English players of British Championship standard.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: All dressed up and nowhere to go...

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:57 pm

Michael Farthing wrote: And it's no good knowing the candidate moves without any idea about what makes them different and what they are trying to do. Words are needed.
My point is that you have to figure it out for yourself. It's much, much easier than it used to be. The database gives you what's been played before. If you don't see the tactical justification, just get an engine to check it for you. From time to time when trundling down theory you might worry that you are facing Kramnik. But you can take comfort that Kasparov is helping you.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: All dressed up and nowhere to go...

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:55 pm

The engine isn't there in a game. After the game it's too late. And it's no use for next time. The opponent isn't going to do the same thing. AND I'M NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO FIGURE IT OUT FOR MYSELF. I'M A BEGINNER

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: All dressed up and nowhere to go...

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:09 pm

Don't shout - we've all been there, you know ;)

The only *real* solution to being a beginner is to play - lots. Do you do online chess much?
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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Michael Farthing
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Re: All dressed up and nowhere to go...

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:35 pm

I'm sorry - it seemed the only way to be heard, though perhaps still likely to be ineffective.

A puzzle:
TTHETHLTH

Mike Truran
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Re: All dressed up and nowhere to go...

Post by Mike Truran » Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:35 pm

Don't shout
If I had Roger lecturing me in his relentless automaton style I might shout as well. Oops - that's what I used to do until I realized it had absolutely no effect.
That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.
I dimly recall quoting that a few years back. It made no difference then. It will make no difference now.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: All dressed up and nowhere to go...

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:02 am

Mike Truran wrote:If I had Roger lecturing me in his relentless automaton style I might shout as well. Oops - that's what I used to do until I realized it had absolutely no effect.
There was a Congress in Witney two weeks ago. Reporting the results would be of interest. For that matter there's a Chiltern county match on Saturday with Bucks v Oxon. I'm aware that the venue is considered "smelly" but on the published pairings Bucks are going to be something like +30 on many boards.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: All dressed up and nowhere to go...

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:04 am

Re the books discussion earlier - TIBTCO is a perfectly good book as long as you just read it for the general advice and principles.

Quite a lot of its actual openings coverage - notably of the Sicilian, for example - is almost (quite literally) prehistoric these days.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Roger de Coverly
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Re: All dressed up and nowhere to go...

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:37 am

Matt Mackenzie wrote: TIBTCO is a perfectly good book as long as you just read it for the general advice and principles.
Expanding the abbreviations ?

Admittedly it doesn't cover the Zaitsev or the Gajewski, but Leonard Barden's 1963 book on the Ruy Lopez contains some interesting nuggets. I managed to briefly transpose to a Olympiad game from 1962 in which there's an interesting exchange sacrifice.