Carlsen resigns on move 2

[MJMcCready]

Hi Keith,

I know from your facebooks post your feel quite strongly about this,
I'll tread carefully but give me a bit of room to add an opinion.

I think the after game interview from Hans helped Carlsen walk.
It starts with ''He [Carlsen] played poorly,' then came what sounded very much
like him calling Carlsen a prick then corrected himself.

Onto Carlsen was embarrassed for losing...the part about his opening prep.
Not content with this Hans then roped in a bunch of good GM's (the top 10)
by saying they had no ambition and were cashing in... Organisers should
review who gets into these tournaments to give the young a chance.

Not bad. Even me on a good day could not manage to rile a world champion,
a bunch of great players and telling organisers how to run their show.

I don't know about being put off about playing someone you suspect of cheating.
Online yes it is always flashing across your mind. But OTB from an experienced
player. That's a grey area. (and a new excuse for losing) We will have to wait
to hear what he says, if indeed he does elaborate further. (we might get another meme)

For now I'm with he had an off day crowd, that happens, it knocked back the chase
to 2900 and then came the interview. Something happened before Rd.4 was it
either Hans goes or I do. (pure speculation.) OTB cheating, an insulting interview, or a bit of both.

No way did Magnus walk out because he simply lost. It was not an impulsive move,
he had a whole night to calm down ...and watch that interview.

Carlsen quit and when asked about it our hero Hans just had to say;
'At least I got to beat him before left.'

But I'm old school, maybe this is how the young chess players carry on these days.

I still expect some kind of apology from Magnus at the end of the tournament.
If he comes out shooting from the hip then I'll go into hiding for a month.
I enjoy having fun with these incidents, but they are our incidents, chess
players, our in jokes. When the main media gets involved and anal beads is mentioned...

(I've not gone near that one for a cheap laugh, I honestly had to google those beads,
I truly had no idea what they were. I clicked on images, OOPS! I then deleted my history.)

You are expecting an apology? I wouldn't hold your breathe there...mistakes have been made.

[MJMcCready]

It is and has been my opinion ever since this story broke that Carlsen is aware of very damning information. I have heard a story myself which it is hard not to believe given it's details, but which I am not at liberty to disclose. I think it likely that the top players are one by one becoming aware of such stories, and hence the changing of their stances.

I find it depressing that there is so much vitriol against the World Champion on social media. I have now banned it from my facebook wall along with unfounded conspiracy theories against Chess.com, the world leaders on anti-cheating with many brilliant minds employed.

On the subject of unfair-play detection Fabiano Caruana mentions that Ken Regan's methods simply do not work when it comes to intelligent cheating by GMs.

Don't forget who is the known cheat and who is the protester in all of this! And try to remember that Magnus had to be careful how he goes about dealing with the matter. He wants nothing more than a cleaner game and is, in the words of Caruana, risking his reputation to do so.

I think he made a mistake not pulling out of Sinquefield Cup at the beginning and he is probably regretting not doing so, but we are not trained in how best to deal with cheats, so give him a break!

In a similar situation Wesley So directly accused a GM called Petrosian, and was proved to be correct, but it is a risky business ,as absolute proof, even when we all know what's going on, as in the Rausis case , is hard to come by.

Things are clearly going in the right direction so let's just be patient and await further developments. The World Champion has been very busy lately playing the game he loves against honest opponents.

Edit, I just saw your post, Geoff. I understand your desire for everyone to be playing honestly, but I think most of what you have said has been trumped by Fabiano Caruana revealing yesterday that Magnus was in a quandary about whether to withdraw from the Sinquefield Cup when Niemann was brought is as a last minute sub. At that point Magnus was already sure in his mind that the guy is a cereal cheat, both online and OTB.

This info trumps all the nonsense about prep being leaked and Magnus withdrawing because he lost a game.

Well the problem is Carlsen isn't saying anything when the whole matter could be cleared up quite easily. Those beyond the chess world have found all this rather amusing and it's understandable why but I don't see anything funny, just harm to GM Hans Niemann, who will have to live with all this.

[MJMcCready]

Hi Kirk,

I'm with you for forgiving Hans, he has admitted it. It was wrong and it will
follow him around forever, there is no getting from that, his name will
crop up whenever in the future another cheating scandal hits the headlines.

And yes perhaps Magnus fully expected Regan to find something in Hans's OTB past.
And by the time he realised this was not the case he maintained his silence.

But as Keith says suspecting it it could or can affect your play, certainly in an online game.
OTB I don't know. What else can I say on that matter.
It's never crossed my mind that my OTB opponent was cheating.
(why should I. If you need a computer to beat me then you really are a bad player.)

Maybe if I thought my opponent was 'somehow' cheating It would put me off.
However knowing me I'd most likely think:
'OK you are getting moves from a computer...well I can beat that.'

It certainly will haunt Hans for a long time I suspect.

If Carlsen is aware of very damning information then he needs to come out with a statement. And this esoteric club of top GMs with these 'stories', what is that all about? Why don't any of them come out public with them? Could it be that there is no actual evidence to prove them? Either there is proof that Hans cheated OTB or there isn't. We can't have all these unfounded suspicions festering in the background.

Couldn't agree more. Since when was it difficult to speak publicly?

I'm in a minority here, I am a human being with a sense of humanity. The harm this has caused GM Hans Niemann is just too great. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't sue Carlsen over all this -he bloody well should. I would if I were him.

[MJMcCready]

We can't have all these unfounded suspicions festering in the background.

Believe me, the story I know of if is certainly not unfounded. I am far too removed from the whole business to be permitted to say more though. And it is also not the responsibility of Caruana or any of the other top players who probably also know more by now to say anything. It is entirely in Magnus Carlsen's hands how he handles this, and he has strongly hinted that he will reveal more after he has completed his current tournament - perhaps after taking legal advice.

This all sounds rather clandestine.
'Reveal more'...how about reveal something for once.
Legal action? I would suggest body guards and body armour also.

The whole thing is just one big embarrassment.

[David Shepherd]

Well it's not about right or wrong but more so interpretation. The bottom line is Magnus could easily have voiced his concerns and hasn't. That is the cause of all the problems and has resulted in it turning into a scandal. He was outplayed and his behaviour was not very sporting. The whole thing has been handled very poorly and the world champion really should shoulder the blame for that.

I suspect the bottom line is that Magnus "could easily have voiced his concerns" and as a result could easily have ended up in court - particularly if he was incorrect or could not prove any allegations made against one or more individuals. I strongly suspect that he has received legal advice that he should not speak on the subject at the current time.

It seems like something more is going on that is in the public domain and so rumours develop which may or may not be correct.

[MJMcCready]

Yes that's about right but at what point is someone going to say 'It's about time we moved on from all this' or are we to be kept in the dark for how long I don't know. Forgive me for sounding human but the harm this must have caused GM Niemann and so little is said about that.

[JustinHorton]

I suspect the bottom line is that Magnus "could easily have voiced his concerns" and as a result could easily have ended up in court - particularly if he was incorrect or could not prove any allegations made against one or more individuals.

Quite likely, but if that's so he needed to have a much better alternative approach than the one he actually took, no?

[Mike Gunn]

The thing is, if Carlsen has some actual evidence of Niemann cheating he should have taken this to the arbiters/ organisers of the events. (Perhaps he did and they found it less than convincing.). Carlsen has gone about this in completely the wrong way and it is damaging chess (as far as you can damage chess in the public eye which is a bit of a moot point).

[Keith Arkell]

Hi Keith

Presumably fairly recent though?

Hi Mick, and thanks for the support on here for the British, by the way

Combining stuff I've heard and stuff I've read and watched I would guess that Carlsen learnt some damning info in the days before the Sinquefield Cup.

It is certain that he was in a quandary about whether to pull out as he did not wish to play someone he was by then then confident was a serial cheat. (Incidentally, I think he should have pulled out there and then, and perhaps then made a similar statement to the one he actually made when he mis-timed his withdrawal).

I am speculating that in more recent times he has been sharing what he knows with his fellow top players, as that would explain their condemnatory tones.

along with unfounded conspiracy theories against Chess.com, the world leaders on anti-cheating with many brilliant minds employed.

What does this actually mean though? In both senses, i.e. (a)what's the conspiracy theories and (b) what conclusion are we supposed to draw from your description of chessdotcom?

I've read slurs suggesting or hinting that Chess.com recently banned Niemann from their site because they are influenced by their business association with Carlsen. What utter rubbish. They banned him and removed him from an upcoming event because he is a serial cheat.

[JustinHorton]

You say that, but when was he cheating and when was he removed?

[Keith Arkell]

I'm not sure exactly which cheating he was removed for but as the removal was recent it's hard to believe that it was for cheating years ago.

[Geoff Chandler]

but I think most of what you have said has been trumped by Fabiano Caruana revealing yesterday that Magnus was in a quandary about whether to withdraw from the Sinquefield Cup when Niemann was brought is as a last minute sub.

Hi Keith,

This has been one of the main troubles with whole show. Wee snippets reach us on a daily basis.
It is the timing of Magnus quitting the tournament that threw the whole thing into a melting pot
of speculation, fact and fiction. I've never suspected for a moment it was because he lost and as
there was no proof of OTB cheating then this 'possibly' has personal undertones.

In hindsight Magnus should have voiced strong concerns before it started and then perhaps quit
But that is very easy to say. In further hindsight perhaps most of us (and I'm right up there) should
have waited till all the facts are in before speculation but that, as we can see, was very difficult to do.

[Roger de Coverly]

It is certain that he was in a quandary about whether to pull out as he did not wish to play someone he was by then then confident was a serial cheat.

That could be plausible if only considering online play. But a credible accusation OTB should demonstrate the alleged method of how engine suggestions find their way back to the player. Frequent "toilet" breaks is one such method, but not suggested in this instance. Signalling from a connected party is another method, again not suggested.

[Keith Arkell]

but I think most of what you have said has been trumped by Fabiano Caruana revealing yesterday that Magnus was in a quandary about whether to withdraw from the Sinquefield Cup when Niemann was brought is as a last minute sub.

Hi Keith,

It is the timing of Magnus quitting the tournament that threw the whole thing into a melting pot
of speculation, fact and fiction. I've never suspected for a moment it was because he lost and as
there was no proof of OTB cheating then this 'possibly' has personal undertones.

I agree, Geoff. It led to all sorts of wacky character assassinations of Carlsen.

I think the top players see no difference between OTB and Online cheating. They simply want clean players in their events.

[David Shepherd]

I suspect the bottom line is that Magnus "could easily have voiced his concerns" and as a result could easily have ended up in court - particularly if he was incorrect or could not prove any allegations made against one or more individuals.

Quite likely, but if that's so he needed to have a much better alternative approach than the one he actually took, no?

Yes but then he is not a machine and emotions will play a part.