European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Apr

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LozCooper

Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by LozCooper » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:16 am

Mick Norris wrote:World Cup Qualification explained here:
http://www.thechessmind.net/

"...the top three, in tiebreak order, were Potkin, Wojtaszek, and Polgar.

They finished with 8.5 points, and 11 more players finished with 8. (Vallejo Pons, Ragger, Feller, Svidler, R. Mamedov, Vitiugov, Zhigalko, Jakovenko, Korobov, Inarkiev and Postny.) All of these players qualified for the World Cup, as did the top eleven (of 29) players with 7.5: Azarov, Khairullin, Kobalia, Guliyev, Zherebukh, Riazantsev, Iordachescu, Lupulescu, McShane, Fridman and Motylev. (Yes, that adds up to 26 and only 23 qualifying spots were available. The solution to the mystery is that Potkin, Svidler and R. Mamedov had already qualified for the World Cup!)"
Apparantly the organisers told the players that they couldn't confirm who had qualified but they should check the ECU website in a week's time :shock: The tie-break involved removing each player's games against their lowest and highest rated player so if Gawain had been involved he would have had to remove his win against Navara :?

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Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by David Sedgwick » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:23 am

Please also see Mark Crowther's report on TWIC at http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/chessnews/e ... idual-2011, citing Macauley Peterson on Chess Vibes at http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/potki ... tie-break/.

My understanding is as indicated in those reports and in the comments up thread here, namely that Potkin and Mamedov had already qualified from last year's European Individual Championship and Svidler by virtue of his rating.

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John Saunders
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Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by John Saunders » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:23 am

One peculiarity which I had not picked up on previously (apologies if it has already been debated here) was that, for tie-break purposes, a player's results against their highest and lowest rated opponent were ignored in calculating the TPR used for the primary tie-break in Aix. So, though Gawain's actual TPR for the event was 2653, the TPR used to calculate his primary tie-break was 2611 because his win against David Navara (2722) in the last round (a tremendous result, btw) was discounted from the tie-break calculation. Apparently there was almost a mutiny when this tie-break methodology became known to the players.

It makes sense to discount one (or perhaps two) game(s) against the lowest rated player(s), since it is bad luck on a player who, for whatever reason, is paired against a very low-rated opponent at some point, but it is hard to see the logic in discounting games against their strongest opponents. Perhaps someone could try explaining this tie-break methodology or give some information on its background. Has it been used before?

Gawain had an excellent finish - 2½/3 against Gallagher, Sargissian and Navara. Jovanka also deserves praise for a good result. A win against talented Italian GM Daniele Vocaturo (who recently won Tata Steel C ahead of Nyzhnyk) in the final round was a great way to finish.
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Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by David Sedgwick » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:42 am

John Saunders wrote:One peculiarity which I had not picked up on previously (apologies if it has already been debated here) was that, for tie-break purposes, a player's results against their highest and lowest rated opponent were ignored in calculating the TPR used for the primary tie-break in Aix. So, though Gawain's actual TPR for the event was 2653, the TPR used to calculate his primary tie-break was 2611 because his win against David Navara (2722) in the last round (a tremendous result, btw) was discounted from the tie-break calculation. Apparently there was almost a mutiny when this tie-break methodology became known to the players.

It makes sense to discount one (or perhaps two) game(s) against the lowest rated player(s), since it is bad luck on a player who, for whatever reason, is paired against a very low-rated opponent at some point, but it is hard to see the logic in discounting games against their strongest opponents. Perhaps someone could try explaining this tie-break methodology or give some information on its background. Has it been used before?

Gawain had an excellent finish - 2½/3 against Gallagher, Sargissian and Navara. Jovanka also deserves praise for a good result. A win against talented Italian GM Daniele Vocaturo (who recently won Tata Steel C ahead of Nyzhnyk) in the final round was a great way to finish.
The FIDE Regulations regarding tie-breaks are at http://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html? ... ew=article. As you suggest, they include the discounting of results against the lowest rated players, but not those against the highest rated ones. However, these Regulations may be out of date, as to the best of my knowledge the decisions of the 2010 FIDE Congress in this area haven't yet been reflected in the Handbook.

When using Buchholz (Sum of Opponents' Scores) as a tie-break, it's common to use Median Buchholz, discounting the highest and lowest opponents' scores. That way you don't benefit or suffer if you happen to have played someone who went on to achieve an extreme result.

When using Tournament Performance Ratings, I suppose the logic of discounting the result against your highest rated opponent is that you get a boost to your TPR from a loss to a very highly rated player compared with an "ordinary" loss.

This logic breaks down, of course, when you have defeat your highest rated opponent and then find your best result has been discounted.

Whatever the merits and demerits of the system, it's obviously unfortunate if the manner of calculation wasn't known to the players until after the last round. I suspect, however, than the information was available, but no-one really looked at it (any more than we did here).

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Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by John Saunders » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:57 am

Thank you, David. That makes it clearer.

I'm not sure when the alleged near-mutiny is supposed to have taken place. It may well have been before the last round. As you say, it seems probable that the tie-break methodology had been advertised somewhere but that nobody focused on it until late in the day.
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LozCooper

Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by LozCooper » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:12 am

It appears Luke will be packing his bags for Siberia again :oops:

World Cup 2011 Khanty Mansiysk, Russia 26-Aug-2011 21-Sep-2011

It looks like the top three in the world cup get to be part of the 2014 world championship candidates tournament:

"The World Chess Championship 2014 will be a match between the winner of the World Chess Championship 2012 and a challenger, to determine the 2014 World Chess Champion. It will be held under the auspices of FIDE, the World Chess Federation.

The defending champion will be the winner of the World Chess Championship 2012, which will involve a match between 2010 champion Viswanathan Anand of India and a challenger to be determined by the winner of the 2011 Candidates Tournament.

In February 2011, FIDE announced[1] that the proposed Candidates Tournament to determine the challenger for 2014 would consist of a tournament of eight-players, which would be

The loser of the 2012 World Championship match
The top three finishers in the Chess World Cup for 2011
The next highest three rated players in the world
A selection from the organising committee of the Candidates Tournament"

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Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:03 am

John Saunders wrote:Has it been used before?
The only thing I can think of is in figure skating or diving, where extreme results are ignored. But that's something subjective, whereas the result of a chess game is objective. So I don't really see why they need to be excluded.

Sean Hewitt

Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:12 am

The tie break was explained at the technical meeting of the players, held immediately after the opening ceremony. It was discussed in some detail, especially as our own Peter Wells queried it. But any suggestion that this was only discovered during the last round or that there was a mutiny, is very far from the truth I'm afraid.

What is true is that at the closung ceremony every winner (61 of them) received polite applause apart from M. Feller, who was booed.

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Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by benedgell » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:52 pm

Just played through the Potkin-Polgar and Wojtaszek- Svidler games from the last round. A terrible advert for chess, a great advert for the Sofia rules. Imagine a sponsor (or potential sponsor) turning up for the last round and watching that.

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Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:18 pm

benedgell wrote:Just played through the Potkin-Polgar and Wojtaszek- Svidler games from the last round. A terrible advert for chess, a great advert for the Sofia rules. Imagine a sponsor (or potential sponsor) turning up for the last round and watching that.
Without knowing the solution, I would suggest that the financial and sporting penalties for losing outweighed the possible glories of winning. This contrasts with Luke's game where one or both players were prepared to possibly sacrifice World Cup qualification in pursuit of a greater glory of first equal ( and presumably extra prize money).

Sean Hewitt

Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:25 pm

To put this in perspective. Players on 8.5/11 took home €15,000, those on 8/11 got €4,000 each and those on 7.5/11 got precisely €518.

Perhaps the short draw is not so stupid after all?

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Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by Alan Walton » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:32 pm

I think people have to remember that the Sofia rules came into force through APAs, this is where the players have already received generous conditions, and also normally recieve a better distribution of the prize fund, in Swiss tournaments as Sean has pointed out the monetary risk of losing far outweighs the gain for winning a game of chess, so I have no quarms them taking quick draws, we have to remember that these players are professional and have to make a living

LozCooper

Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by LozCooper » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:54 pm

Alan Walton wrote:I think people have to remember that the Sofia rules came into force through APAs, this is where the players have already received generous conditions, and also normally recieve a better distribution of the prize fund, in Swiss tournaments as Sean has pointed out the monetary risk of losing far outweighs the gain for winning a game of chess, so I have no quarms them taking quick draws, we have to remember that these players are professional and have to make a living
It's also less stressful to have a quick draw and then watch the others fight it out, an approach I have often taken :oops:

I agree with Alan, it's more relevant in a small all-play-all where two games finishing quickly could halve the number of games for spectators. I've played in opens where a draw in under 30 moves led to your prize money being halved, this doesn't stop repetition draws though so there's no ideal solution.

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Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:12 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:To put this in perspective. Players on 8.5/11 took home €15,000, those on 8/11 got €4,000 each and those on 7.5/11 got precisely €518.
Alan Walton wrote: ... in Swiss tournaments as Sean has pointed out the monetary risk of losing far outweighs the gain for winning a game of chess ...
I'm not convinced the quick last round draw is the best way for a player to maximise their income. Sean's figures show that a series of wins and losses would be much better for the player. For example, suppose someone plays in 10 such tournaments:

1. They draw all 10 games and win 10 * €4,000 = €40,000
2. They win 5 games and lose 5 games and win 5 * €15,000 + 5 * €518 = €77,590

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Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by Alan Walton » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:23 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote:To put this in perspective. Players on 8.5/11 took home €15,000, those on 8/11 got €4,000 each and those on 7.5/11 got precisely €518.
Alan Walton wrote: ... in Swiss tournaments as Sean has pointed out the monetary risk of losing far outweighs the gain for winning a game of chess ...
I'm not convinced the quick last round draw is the best way for a player to maximise their income. Sean's figures show that a series of wins and losses would be much better for the player. For example, suppose someone plays in 10 such tournaments:

1. They draw all 10 games and win 10 * €4,000 = €40,000
2. They win 5 games and lose 5 games and win 5 * €15,000 + 5 * €518 = €77,590
I think you are quoting the wrong players here, we are talking about the 3 players leading the tournament, so if these players actually lost they would have seen a reduction of the prize of approximately €10,000, but if they tried for a win they would have only seen there prize rise by €5,000; so from this it shows there is more to risk playing for a win

I do agree with your example, and I didn't see any of the games from the last round for the score group of 7/10 and if these were more battling than the top boards