J Hawkins

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Roger de Coverly
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Re: J Hawkins

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:13 am

Mick Norris wrote: Interesting geographical spread? Markland is from Bolton I believe

At the time it would have been regarded as:-

Penrose ( 10 times British Champion) plus

3*Cambridge University (Keene, Hartston, Stean)
2*Oxford University (Whiteley, Markland)

I'm not sure why Tony Miles wasn't selected, although at the time, international opportunities for British players to play for IM/GM titles were limited and the BCF tended to share out what few it had as its disposal. So Tony played in (and won) the World Junior in the Philippines gaining the IM title.

AustinElliott
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Re: J Hawkins

Post by AustinElliott » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:37 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:[Back in the 70s], international opportunities for British players to play for IM/GM titles were limited and the BCF tended to share out what few it had as its disposal.
Yes, reading through the stuff from the period on my bookshelf and online, the impression is that the chances for IM/GM norms for British players were:

(i) Olympiads
(ii) Hastings

- and possibly (iii) World junior

Re another of Roger's comments above, interested to see Adams was in the team in 1990, when he was only 19. And Short in 1984 would also have been under 20. Of course, that is mostly telling you what tremendously fast/early developers they were as players - both already British Champions before their 18th birthdays, and Short I guess possibly already a GM in 1984. But you could argue it does also show that you could make the Olympiad side very young if you were good enough. It calls to mind the old cricketing adage about:
If you're good enough, you're old enough
Taking a different tack, what this whole conversation arguably shows is the importance of having a full-strength (or as near to as possible) British Championship, with most of the GMs playing. The point is that this means you can see which of the currently NON-GM players, including the ones who may not have had many chances to play international chess, have what it takes to hold their own against the GMs. If you think of the old USSR set-up, one way coming players 'announced themselves' used to be a top four finish in the old USSR championship, which was a super-strong mostly GM tournament and a match (from the 30s to the 80s) for almost any international event short of the candidates tournament.

Anyway, I can't help thinking that an event like that (this) every year would do wonders for the players in the sub-GM or younger-GM 'Wonder how far they could really go?' category. So the organisers must be due a big slap on the back for getting this group of players together for the British, and let's hope it can happen again next year, and the one after that.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: J Hawkins

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:00 am

I found myself wondering about Hawkins for England over the last couple of days. I think it hit me when I was trying to predict Hawkins v Conquest; I started on the premise that a Hawkins win would be a very modest surprise, and the unprompted thought jumped into my head - well, no, Hawkins is probably just stronger now, full stop. I also found myself thinking that there is a big five rather than a big four in the British this year. The only half-point Hawkins has dropped outside the other members of the big five has been to Ryan Griffiths, who himself is already a very respectable player and who in a few years will probably be competing with Sam Collins for top spot in the Irish team.

That said, if the selectors still think it is too early, and that Hawkins should rather be pencilled in for next year or the year after, when he has reached 2520 or so, then you could hardly criticise them for that.

AustinElliott
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Re: J Hawkins

Post by AustinElliott » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:58 pm

Just read Leonard Barden's Guardian column from last week, which is interesting in relation to this discussion:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/ju ... mpionships

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: J Hawkins

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:31 pm

AustinElliott wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:I'd be more interested in the history of the teams - when was the last time anyone with a title lower than that of GM was selected for either event?
If you're into ancient history, you could also ask the 'reciprocal' question: when was the last time an England team had no GMs in it. I have an old Batsford book of the 1974 Nice Olympiad, which suggests that might be the answer ....
Well are we talking individual matches or entire events? Miles and Keene both got their GM titles at Haifa, but Keene right at the end, Miles sometime in the middle. You had to wait to be formally awarded the title in those days (people used to be called things like GM-elect and IM-elect to cover the bit between getting the final norm and actually getting the title).

I don't have the evidence to hand just now, but I suspect Miles would have played some games at the Haifa Olympiad in 1976 before getting the GM title so, depending on how picky you're being, the early rounds of that Olympiad could be the answer.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: J Hawkins

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:40 pm

Was Hawkins' 4NCL norm against sufficient foreign-registered players to count as a 'foreigner' norm? If not, then selection for an international team event could be one way to get that third (foreigner) norm if his first two are obtained at events in this country. Or are there GM norm events in this country that have enough foreign-registered players that would be more convenient in terms of travel?

Sean Hewitt

Re: J Hawkins

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:17 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Was Hawkins' 4NCL norm against sufficient foreign-registered players to count as a 'foreigner' norm?
There is no foreigner requirement in either the National Championships or the National League for norm purposes.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: J Hawkins

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:21 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Was Hawkins' 4NCL norm against sufficient foreign-registered players to count as a 'foreigner' norm?
There is no foreigner requirement in either the National Championships or the National League for norm purposes.
I know, I'm talking about the requirements for one of an applicant's three norms to be one done under those requirements. i.e. Does Hawkins still need to fulfil that requirement, or did the 4NCL norm fulfil it?

"1.43f: At least one of the norms has to be achieved under normal foreigner requirement. (See 1.43 first clause and 1.44a)"

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Gavin Strachan
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Re: J Hawkins

Post by Gavin Strachan » Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:36 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
AustinElliott wrote:If you're into ancient history, you could also ask the 'reciprocal' question: when was the last time an England team had no GMs in it. I have an old Batsford book of the 1974 Nice Olympiad, which suggests that might be the answer - the England team, in board order:
For no GMs, that has to be the answer. Miles had the title by then.

It wasn't until 1990 that the team was 100% GM despite having come second a number of times in the years before. In 1984 Short, in 1986 Flear and 1988 Watson were all nominally IMs at the time . Stats from http://www.olimpbase.org/

The 1990 team was
Short
Speelman
Nunn
Adams
Chandler
Hodgson

It shows where we used to rank in World chess. That team finished third (on tie break) behind the USSR and the USA. At least two members of that team (Adams and Hodgson) were regular players on the weekend Congress scene. To find out the latest theory in the Tromp, you just had to look at the top board games in the Open.
The dream team. Most inspiring English team ever. The 1980's teams we could muster were so full of quality even though they were the chess playing equivalent of Fulham FC. Hodgson with BG5, Chandler with the Alapin, etc. Great side.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: J Hawkins

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:23 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Consideration for selection, yes. Actual selection might be less obvious, unless lots of GMs and higher-rated players were unavailable. I presume that higher-rated players and GMs would be asked first. That said, I know very little about the selection process. I'd be more interested in the history of the teams - when was the last time anyone with a title lower than that of GM was selected for either event?
I take it all back. Put him in the team! :D

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Gavin Strachan
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Re: J Hawkins

Post by Gavin Strachan » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:26 pm

i would still go by grade as one swallow does not make a summer and meritocracy has its benefits!

Roger de Coverly
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Re: J Hawkins

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:06 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:1.43f: At least one of the norms has to be achieved under normal foreigner requirement. (See 1.43 first clause and 1.44a)
For leagues, there is, or was, a rule which says you determine the count of players not from the home federation by looking at the league as a whole. So it doesn't matter who you actually play.

harrylamb
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Re: J Hawkins

Post by harrylamb » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:28 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mick Norris wrote: Interesting geographical spread? Markland is from Bolton I believe
At the time it would have been regarded as:-

Penrose ( 10 times British Champion) plus

3*Cambridge University (Keene, Hartston, Stean)
2*Oxford University (Whiteley, Markland)

I'm not sure why Tony Miles wasn't selected,
Well I was around then and it would certainly not have been regarded that way by me :roll:

Yes Mick, I agree. Peter Markland was from Bolton.

And for those who do not know, Tony Miles was at Sheffield University when he became Britain's first ever Grandmaster in 1976. Not, of course, that would I suggest any bias by the selectors or anyone else!

Harry Lamb
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Chairman Bolton Chess Club 1964- to Date
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Stewart Reuben
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Re: J Hawkins

Post by Stewart Reuben » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:22 pm

>[Back in the 70s], international opportunities for British players to play for IM/GM titles were limited and the BCF tended to share out what few it had as its disposal.<

This all started to change, not just in Britain, following Lloyds Bank Masters 1977.

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
1.43f: At least one of the norms has to be achieved under normal foreigner requirement. (See 1.43 first clause and 1.44a)
Roger de Coverly wrote:
For leagues, there is, or was, a rule which says you determine the count of players not from the home federation by looking at the league as a whole. So it doesn't matter who you actually play.

Christopher is correct. A player must have at least one norm where the normal foreigner requirements are met. In both of Jonathan's norms he met a substantially English field.
GM norm opportunities under the ECF umbrella exist in Hastings, Gibraltar, some e2e4 events, sometimes the Jessie Gilbert Memorial and other Coulsdon activities. The Scottish Championship also sometimes offers GM norm opportunities. Somebody whose objective was specifically norm opportunities could go to live in Budapest for a year. You could also follow a Spanish circuit. One of the easiest routes to a GM norm is the European Club Cup as that is only 7 rounds. There is absolutely no reason to select somebody for England just to give them a GM norm opportunity with enough foreigners.

The main problems are time and money. The FRIENDS OF CHESS does offer bursaries to players seeking norms and grants to events where norms are possible. I have asked Jonathan to apply. Adam Hunt is taking a year off with the objective of becoming a GM.

The term GMe, IMe, WGMe or WIMe is still used in Britain. e stands for Elect. It refers somebody who has met all the conditions but is awaiting ratification. e.g. there is a 60 day wait after posting on the FIDE site in order to give people an opportunity to object. GMc means conditional on reaching the required rating. John Nicholson is IMc and has been for umpteen years, despite having 5 IM norms.

Stewart Reuben