Wonder if it was a draw claim declined (and disputed) or accepted (and disputed)? Are the results online and what was the result of that final game? I guess we may hear more about the conduct of the players as well as that of the arbiter, but hopefully it won't get too acrimonious. It would be nice if the ECF was able to help settle matters like this, as it can't be nice for said arbiter to have one of the country's top GMs saying things like this on Twitter (even if justified). It can't be easy for said GMs either, especially when this is money that pays the bills. And to be fair, forumites commenting on the matter is unlikely to help!Andrew Bak wrote:For those not on twitter:
Ah, for the love of increment...@GMGawain wrote:Will update the website about it tomorrow. Basically the arbiter didn't know the 10.2 rule which cost me £920.
Southend
-
- Posts: 8839
- Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
- Location: London
Re: Southend
-
- Posts: 4830
- Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
- Location: Bideford
Re: Southend
The game was Jones v Cherniaev, it was a draw, and the material balance was R+N for Jones versus R+P for Cherniaev. That's as much as I've gleaned from various conversations on Facebook.Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Wonder if it was a draw claim declined (and disputed) or accepted (and disputed)? Are the results online and what was the result of that final game? I guess we may hear more about the conduct of the players as well as that of the arbiter, but hopefully it won't get too acrimonious. It would be nice if the ECF was able to help settle matters like this, as it can't be nice for said arbiter to have one of the country's top GMs saying things like this on Twitter (even if justified). It can't be easy for said GMs either, especially when this is money that pays the bills. And to be fair, commentary on the matter here is unlikely to help!Andrew Bak wrote:For those not on twitter:
Ah, for the love of increment...@GMGawain wrote:Will update the website about it tomorrow. Basically the arbiter didn't know the 10.2 rule which cost me £920.
-
- Posts: 8839
- Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
- Location: London
Re: Southend
Oh, that explains a lot. Is there history between Jones and Cherniaev or is this the first time they've played? Surely not. Presumably Jones is disputing the award of a draw and was "making progress". Probably best to wait for the game score if that is ever published.IM Jack Rudd wrote:The game was Jones v Cherniaev, it was a draw, and the material balance was R+N for Jones versus R+P for Cherniaev. That's as much as I've gleaned from various conversations on Facebook.
-
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:18 pm
Re: Southend
With this sort of position, I'd say that the game score is vital in drawing an accurate conclusion.Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Probably best to wait for the game score if that is ever published.
-
- Posts: 3452
- Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 3:54 pm
Re: Southend
Does there have to be?Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Is there history between Jones and Cherniaev ...?
The Abysmal Depths of Chess: https://theabysmaldepthsofchess.blogspot.com
-
- Posts: 3604
- Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am
Re: Southend
Gawain's latest update
"Will update the website about it tomorrow. Basically the arbiter didn't know the 10.2 rule which cost me £920"
So, I guess we'll find out (Gawain's side of the story) tomorrow
"Will update the website about it tomorrow. Basically the arbiter didn't know the 10.2 rule which cost me £920"
So, I guess we'll find out (Gawain's side of the story) tomorrow
-
- Posts: 2720
- Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:16 pm
- Location: NW4 4UY
Re: Southend
BlimeyIM Jack Rudd wrote:The game was Jones v Cherniaev, it was a draw, and the material balance was R+N for Jones versus R+P for Cherniaev. That's as much as I've gleaned from various conversations on Facebook.
Adam Raoof IA, IO
Chess England Events - https://chessengland.com/
The Chess Circuit - https://chesscircuit.substack.com/
Don’t stop playing chess!
Chess England Events - https://chessengland.com/
The Chess Circuit - https://chesscircuit.substack.com/
Don’t stop playing chess!
-
- Posts: 8839
- Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
- Location: London
Re: Southend
No, but I get the impression some GMs are more likely to have a history. I also got the impression they hadn't met before. Which reminds me, I never saw any updates on that tournament in Dublin. Yeah, bit of a random topic change, I know!Jonathan Bryant wrote:Does there have to be?Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Is there history between Jones and Cherniaev ...?
-
- Posts: 3452
- Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 3:54 pm
Re: Southend
True enough, although some GMs don't seem to need a history with any given person for it to kick off.Christopher Kreuzer wrote:No, but I get the impression some GMs are more likely to have a history.
(which is to say nothing about the rights and wrongs of the arbiter's decision in this particular case)
The Abysmal Depths of Chess: https://theabysmaldepthsofchess.blogspot.com
-
- Posts: 21322
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm
Re: Southend
Given enough time, are there any "normal" positions where R + N is winning against R + P?Christopher Kreuzer wrote: Presumably Jones is disputing the award of a draw and was "making progress". Probably best to wait for the game score if that is ever published.
With 6 piece endings available on the Shredder website and others, an objective answer is possible.
If you rank "can the position be won" above " is progress being made" , the award of a draw is logical.
-
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:14 pm
- Location: Southend-on-Sea
Re: Southend
I wasn't present at this event, but the score sheets have landed on my desk. They don't help much. Both players gave up scoring around move 75. The arbiter's incomplete notes allow me to extend this to move 88, but the material remaining then is still R+B+N v R+N+2P.
Former ECF Grading System Programmer
-
- Posts: 1179
- Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:34 pm
- Location: Twickenham
Re: Southend
Just the most recent of many examples involving strong players I found on Big Database 2013.
Sounds to me (as an unqualified arbiter) that it should have been given a win.
A couple of years ago, at a Richmond Rapidplay, a player in a lower section was awarded a win on time under 10.2 with Rook and Bishop against Rook. His opponent protested and said that he'd never play in Richmond Rapidplays again. It probably didn't help his cause that the arbiter who made the decision had once been married to Keith Arkell.
-
- Posts: 21322
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm
Re: Southend
The final recorded position is a complete mess, so you might expect an arbiter to ask for play to continue. With a lack of any obvious case as to who was winning, a win might be expected to be awarded to the player whose flag didn't fall. But later if the position clarified to a 6 man ending, a draw could reasonably be awarded if the position is actually drawn. But that in turn relies on the arbiter ranking "able to win" above "trying to win".Howard Grist wrote: The arbiter's incomplete notes allow me to extend this to move 88, but the material remaining then is still R+B+N v R+N+2P.
Last edited by Roger de Coverly on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 3452
- Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 3:54 pm
Re: Southend
I'm rather surprised Alex H hasn't commented on this as yet. Is he being held somewhere against his will and/or being forced to play an adjournment perhaps?
Anyhoo, my limited understanding of such matters is that - viz Roger/Chris's comments - the objective evaluation of the position isn't especially important in such decisions. Hence the KRB v KR decision at Richmond cited above.
Anyhoo, my limited understanding of such matters is that - viz Roger/Chris's comments - the objective evaluation of the position isn't especially important in such decisions. Hence the KRB v KR decision at Richmond cited above.
The Abysmal Depths of Chess: https://theabysmaldepthsofchess.blogspot.com
-
- Posts: 9085
- Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
- Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Re: Southend
He's alive and well, but is maintaining a diplomatic silence in case this lands in his inbox in his official capacity. It would be wrong of me to comment on this without knowing all of the facts first, and without reference to the Chief Arbiter.Jonathan Bryant wrote:I'm rather surprised Alex H hasn't commented on this as yet. Is he being held somewhere against his will and/or being forced to play an adjournment perhaps?