2800+ Elo Average for 2nd Sinquefield Cup

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Jonathan Bryant
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Re: 2800+ Elo Average for 2nd Sinquefield Cup

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:05 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: The immediacy of Twitter, eh? I'd be a bit annoyed if I was either Magnus or Fabiano (still playing a top-level tournament, remember) and someone tweeted me like that. Let's hope neither are actually following their twitter accounts right now, and/or are sensible enough not to respond...
Come on Chris. If Malcolm wants to get in touch with the Cs he doesn’t need to do it publicly over twitter.



As for the 1993/2000 match not working out ... well I agree that in the long-term there were considerable problems (to say the least) but in the short term Kasparov got a match against Kramnik as opposed to none against Shirov (admittedly he may have come to regret that) and he got a short term win over FIDE with Short 7 years earlier too.

Lewis Martin
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Re: 2800+ Elo Average for 2nd Sinquefield Cup

Post by Lewis Martin » Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:21 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:
Jonathan Bryant wrote: Out of the question?
Not impossible, especially given that in St Louis there would be the appetite for the match, and the finance to provide it, and the expertise to market it (TV etc)

Is this Malcolm Pein giving the idea a little tickle?

https://twitter.com/TelegraphChess/stat ... 2540588032
Like your cheeky reply Jonathan!

If this really happens, what would happen to the rightful challenger, Anand? Caruana wasn't even in the Candidates tournament!

Quite likely Carlsen-Caruana would be more of a spectacle, but Anand is still one of the greatest match players.

In terms of the contract, Anand would be obliged to play, presumably against Karjakin (going on the possibility Carlsen says "No"). So what happens next? If he wins then, Anand is World Champion again. The Candidates will take place again, and another World Championship somewhere else. In the eyes of FIDE, nothing has changed. Do you really think Karjakin/Kramnik/Aronian et al would 'defect'? And the 'other half' would be Carlsen/Caruana/Nakamura etc. It will just ruin the international chess scene I feel.

A re-unification match between the winners of Anand-Karjakin and Carlsen-Caruana? What is the point of this disagreement then?

I don't think that this is the right way to go against FIDE. It'll be a shock to the system sure, but it won't be a good one I feel.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: 2800+ Elo Average for 2nd Sinquefield Cup

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:15 pm

Lewis Martin wrote:If he wins then, Anand is World Champion again.
Only in the way that Karpov was World Champion in 1993, or Khalifman was World Champion whenever that was.


I’m not saying that it’ll be a good thing. I can see the long term arguments against, I can see the short term benefits. I was more interested in peoples’ opinions of whether it was a possibility or not.

Bottom line: whatever you or I or anybody else thinks, if Carlsen wants to play Caruana and somebody wants to pay him to do so the match will happen and Carslen - Anand won’t.

In terms of likelihood of this happening, the fact that Carlsen - Anand II would be like Karpov - Korchnoi III certainly doesn’t reduce the odds.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: 2800+ Elo Average for 2nd Sinquefield Cup

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:12 pm

Except that Anand-Carsen II is still an OFFICIAL world championship match.

In the eyes of many, one of the few good things to happen in the chess world in the Kirsan era is the reunification of the supreme title.

Lots of people would, I expect, be a bit miffed if that was tossed away.........
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Lewis Martin
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Re: 2800+ Elo Average for 2nd Sinquefield Cup

Post by Lewis Martin » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:34 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Lewis Martin wrote:If he wins then, Anand is World Champion again.
Only in the way that Karpov was World Champion in 1993, or Khalifman was World Champion whenever that was.
What a naive statement.

This is a completely different comparison.

As I am sure that you can recall, Short beat Karpov in the semi-final and then beat Timman in the final. So, in this instance, Short was regarded as the rightful challenger to the champion at the time, Kasparov, for the World Championship title.

After the split, it was Kasparov-Short and Karpov-Timman. So, it is no surprise people regard the Kasparov-Short match more of a World Championship match than the FIDE one, Karpov-Timman.

Eventually, in 1999, Karpov retired the title. I can't remember how Khalifman got the title, but he did so without challenging "the resident champion".

Here, we have Carlsen-Anand. Carlsen is the World Champion who has not yet confirmed his participation. That's entirely his choice. But what he cannot do is play a match against someone else and somehow claim that this should be the World Championship match, for him to be the World Champion. He could do it for money if he wanted to, but not to claim that he is World Champion, since he did not play Anand.

Anand is the rightful challenger. Why should Carlsen effectively exclude him to play in a different match? He qualified (and qualified convincingly) by rightful means for the title as stated for the 2014 Championship, unlike Karpov-Timman who lost their respective matches to Short.

As for Carlsen-Caruana: well, why should this be considered a World Championship match? If you say it is World Number 1 vs Number 2, then Aronian will be quite miffed since in terms of 2014, he has been number 2 far longer than Caruana. That is not how World Championship matches should be decided.

If you say, because Caruana won the strongest tournament ever, well, Anand did not play in it whether he was invited or not is irrelevant, then one could argue that this was not "advertised" as the Candidates tournament like the one in Khanty Mansiysk. In this sense why should he be excluded? How do we know that Anand would not have won this tournament if he participated?
Jonathan Bryant wrote: I’m not saying that it’ll be a good thing. I can see the long term arguments against, I can see the short term benefits. I was more interested in peoples’ opinions of whether it was a possibility or not.

Bottom line: whatever you or I or anybody else thinks, if Carlsen wants to play Caruana and somebody wants to pay him to do so the match will happen and Carslen - Anand won’t.

In terms of likelihood of this happening, the fact that Carlsen - Anand II would be like Karpov - Korchnoi III certainly doesn’t reduce the odds.
It isn't a good thing. We don't need this mess. Granted, there needs to be a shock to the FIDE system to improve it, but this isn't the way to go about it.

You've heard my opinion above. Carlsen's match against Caruana won't be for the World Championship title. This will be more controversial than Kasparov-Short, if indeed Carlsen-Caruana is claimed by the players/organisers of the match to be the World Championship. (Ignoring Stan Vaughan of course.)

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: 2800+ Elo Average for 2nd Sinquefield Cup

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:43 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote: In the eyes of many, one of the few good things to happen in the chess world in the Kirsan era is the reunification of the supreme title.

Lots of people would, I expect, be a bit miffed if that was tossed away.........

Oh I’m sure you’re right.

On the other hand, dissatisfaction with Kirsan and the feeling that he’s *never* going to lose an election is one more factor nudging a C-C match towards 'more likely than it otherwise would be'.

A lot of these factors come together - and they have - it may happen.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: 2800+ Elo Average for 2nd Sinquefield Cup

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:48 pm

Let's not forget, too, that Caruana currently seems almost certain to get his big chance in 2015-16 anyway. And he must know this.
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Jonathan Bryant
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Re: 2800+ Elo Average for 2nd Sinquefield Cup

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:05 pm

Lewis Martin wrote:Anand ... qualified (and qualified convincingly) by rightful means for the title as stated for the 2014 Championship, unlike Karpov-Timman who lost their respective matches to Short.

And unlike Kramnik in 2000. It it didn’t do him any harm.


You’re right, of course. Any Carlsen breakaway match - against Caruana or anybody else - wouldn’t be an official world championship match. It wouldn’t need to be.

Everybody knows Carlsen is the best player in the world. A formal title from FIDE to say you are World Champion means nothing in such circumstances - and if you disagree I challenge you to name from memory those guys who won their title between 1993 and reunification.


Be cross if you like - and I understand why you are - but I think you’re misunderstanding my posts. I’m not saying I’m in favour. What I am saying is that there are a lot of factors that have come together that makes a breakaway match possible. In a way that it was not a few months ago, say.


Strip away all the context. What match do you think would excite public chess opinion more: Carlsen - Caruana or Anand - Karjakin.

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Re: 2800+ Elo Average for 2nd Sinquefield Cup

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:17 pm

Lewis Martin wrote: Eventually, in 1999, Karpov retired the title. I can't remember how Khalifman got the title, but he did so without challenging "the resident champion".
In those days, the World title was determined by a knock-out, essentially mostly the same rules as today's world cup. So you could, on paper at least, win by drawing all your regular games and winning in rapidplay or Blitz.

Karpov beat Anand in January 1998, who had needed to win the knock-out stage in December 1997. From then on, he would have been required to start from the first or second round. Khalifman won in 1999 in Las Vegas. He had been the number 36 seed, beating the number 31 seed in the final.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE_World ... nship_1999

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Re: 2800+ Elo Average for 2nd Sinquefield Cup

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:56 pm

Suppose ( just suppose ) that Bayern Munich and Real Madrid were indisputably the two best football teams in Europe. So they say "UEFA and the Champions League suck, we're going to hold our own match to decide who is European Champion." Would that have any legitimacy?
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Jonathan Bryant
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Re: 2800+ Elo Average for 2nd Sinquefield Cup

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:06 pm

NickFaulks wrote:Suppose ( just suppose ) that Bayern Munich and Real Madrid were indisputably the two best football teams in Europe. So they say "UEFA and the Champions League suck, we're going to hold our own match to decide who is European Champion." Would that have any legitimacy?
Of course the Champions League was itself created to satisfy the demands and interests of the most powerful clubs and it too will one day disappear to be replaced by something else (which will be something, you may not be shocked to hear, that will be in the interests of the richest and most powerful clubs of the time). So your example my not have been the most appropriate choice to fight your corner.

Since we’re talking football, you are also aware, no doubt, that many clubs in England left the Football League to form the Premier League (as was)? That was not done in the interests of all clubs either, but it seems to have done OK in the long run in terms of acceptance.

I was not in favour of the changes to football when they happened. They happened anyway.

You can talk about "legitimacy" if you want. It’s not really relevant.

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Re: 2800+ Elo Average for 2nd Sinquefield Cup

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:18 pm

Mick Norris wrote: Not impossible, especially given that in St Louis there would be the appetite for the match, and the finance to provide it,
You think so? My impression is that Mr Sinquefield is at present rather disillusioned with chess, and particularly with World Champions.
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Re: 2800+ Elo Average for 2nd Sinquefield Cup

Post by Graham Borrowdale » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:21 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Lewis Martin wrote: Eventually, in 1999, Karpov retired the title. I can't remember how Khalifman got the title, but he did so without challenging "the resident champion".
In those days, the World title was determined by a knock-out, essentially mostly the same rules as today's world cup. So you could, on paper at least, win by drawing all your regular games and winning in rapidplay or Blitz.

Karpov beat Anand in January 1998, who had needed to win the knock-out stage in December 1997. From then on, he would have been required to start from the first or second round. Khalifman won in 1999 in Las Vegas. He had been the number 36 seed, beating the number 31 seed in the final.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE_World ... nship_1999
Following on from this, FIDE eventually saw the error of its ways of these big knock-out events for the 'World Championship', and replaced them with an 8-player double round all-play-all, the first of which was 2005, won convincingly by Topalov. I am sure that more people regard Topalov as a proper world champion than Khalifman, since the format had more credibility. Remember also that Anand *only* became world champion by winning a similar tournament in 2007, in other words he did not beat the incumbent champion in a match. He subsequently cemented the title by winning against the 'challenger' Kramnik in 2008, who had won the reunification match in 2006.
NickFaulks wrote:Suppose ( just suppose ) that Bayern Munich and Real Madrid were indisputably the two best football teams in Europe. So they say "UEFA and the Champions League suck, we're going to hold our own match to decide who is European Champion." Would that have any legitimacy?

If UEFA started messing around with the format and were unable to raise commercial sponsorship I am quite sure the top football teams would get together and form a breakaway organisation. There would be a queue of backers. But no, if they played a single match it would have no legitimacy

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Re: 2800+ Elo Average for 2nd Sinquefield Cup

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:29 pm

The latest on the Caruana - Nakamura game is that White has made serious progress in a Berlin endgame with Black facing passed e and g pawns ( move 36).

It's one of those generational tests. Kasparov got absolutely nowhere in 2000, so is Caruana a better player, or at least a better prepared player? But equally is the Berlin really suited to Nakamura's playing style?

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Re: 2800+ Elo Average for 2nd Sinquefield Cup

Post by Ian Thompson » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:40 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:The latest on the Caruana - Nakamura game is that White has made serious progress in a Berlin endgame with Black facing passed e and g pawns ( move 36).

It's one of those generational tests. Kasparov got absolutely nowhere in 2000, so is Caruana a better player, or at least a better prepared player? But equally is the Berlin really suited to Nakamura's playing style?
On the basis of Caruana's move 40, he's just as prone to missing things as everyone else. 40.Rxg6+ and the game's over.

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