Women's In-Tournament Training

[Adam Raoof]

I think that initiatives like this are very welcome, and where the ECF can support them to get them under way we will try to. I think everyone who is involved with chess will acknowledge that women are underrepresented at most levels, in clubs and in tournaments, and even in the 4NCL.

Generous moves such as Sean's can only be a good thing for the game, and I hope that lots of players take up the offer of free places for women at e2e4 events. The fact that Sabrina and others may be giving up their place in the tournament to coach players should be noted.

[Alan Burke]

Loz Cooper wrote ...
Is it really necessary to use this thread for a debate on the merits of if women should get free entry rather than concentrate on the subject which is coaching/training?

I totally understand your response Loz ... although I have been looking through the entire forum and can't seem to find where you have asked the same of other contributors who have made posts not relevant to those of the original subject - or can we expect you now to be doing so ?

Equality for ALL !

[Sabrina Chevannes]

Thanks Adam.

As far as I'm concerned, I have just started this thread to make people aware of the event that we are running to encourage women and to let people see the efforts that some people (Sean and the ECF) to support women's chess.

Alan, again, I am unsure as to what you are trying to say as it appears you are telling me not to do exactly what you tried to do to me! Bizarre. The quote that you use about discouraging men is not my view. I am a manager of women's chess and it is my role to do the best I can for women in chess. I have been coaching for several years and collected feedback from women and their feelings. Many talented female players have dropped out for this reason and I am letting others know. I still play myself and so obviously this is not my feeling as I go to tournaments and am the only female player and it doesn't bother me. So therefore I AM seeing the alternative point of view.

Other people on this thread appreciate that I have put this up so that people (if they want to - I am not forcing anyone) can support this event so that I can run future events for women. I don't know why you feel you need to try and twist my words or make it personal.

[Sabrina Chevannes]

Loz Cooper wrote ...
Is it really necessary to use this thread for a debate on the merits of if women should get free entry rather than concentrate on the subject which is coaching/training?

I totally understand your response Loz ... although I have been looking through the entire forum and can't seem to find where you have asked the same of other contributors who have made posts not relevant to those of the original subject - or can we expect you now to be doing so ?

Equality for ALL !

Oh gosh wow! Now I feel like quoting Carol Williams and putting a list of:
A) grow up
B) who are you anyway etc

but I won't

[Alan Burke]

Sabrinna Chevennes wrote ... ''The quote that you use about discouraging men is not my view.''

However, you originally wrote it without qualifying it was NOT your view, so how could it then be taken any other way ? (It's always easy for someone to back off and blame others from something they said after they have been taken to task over it.)

So, the comments you ''didn't'' make in your last post, listed A and B, were not made in your name ?

I would just wish to ask why it is such a problem for you that someone simply asks why the free entry was granted to a particular group of players and that you can't just give a answer without feeling that you are being oppressed ? As I said earlioer, Sean gave a reasonable answer and I appreciate that.

The point you made earlier about females maybe not affording the entry does seem a bit odd, because why should that factmake any difference over a man not being able to afford it - or even more so, would you therefore support free entry for every junior, who obviously are not in a postion to earn money ?

[Alan Walton]

I think that this thread a split into two different themes

1) Training specifically for female players - great idea especially when there is a help from the ECF, this is one of the remits of the ECF anyway, and any efforts in this should always be welcomed

2) Efforts to encourage female participation, personally I think this is a more social problem occuring in the British Isles for the reason of low participation, other countries seem to have a higher participation rate (e.g. according to FIDE England have 43 active female compared with 56 for Slovenia, which has a population of 4% of England), free and discounted entries may help this a little but I think we have to address the underlying problem (god knows how you do that though)

[David Shepherd]

If you look at the number of reasonably strong girls in the U16 category Radha, Chantelle, Amy, Maria, Jennifer,Kavitha etc and compare them to the numbers in all the age groups below, I think you see some of the impact of the work that Claire Summerscale did and the void that has been left since. This is something which Sabrina and Jovanka are now actively working on and I have little doubt that given time, they have the right attitude and skill set to improve the state of affairs, not least because they act as great role models for what females can achieve in the chess world.

If people feel free entry and coaching should be given to juniors in general that is the remit of the junior director, their role is to develop female chess and that is rightly what they are doing.

Sean is also to much praised for the efforts he is making as is Loz.

[LozCooper]

Loz Cooper wrote ...
Is it really necessary to use this thread for a debate on the merits of if women should get free entry rather than concentrate on the subject which is coaching/training?

I totally understand your response Loz ... although I have been looking through the entire forum and can't seem to find where you have asked the same of other contributors who have made posts not relevant to those of the original subject - or can we expect you now to be doing so ?

Equality for ALL !

My comment was aimed at everyone. I don't object to the debate but would prefer it to be used on a seperate thread so that any parent reading this one wouldn't be put off sending her daughter to the training for fear of similar resentment or hostility to that seen here. I realise that is of little concern to some but it would be nice to see some positive feedback on a new venture which gives younger and older women the chance to be coached by England's number one active female player and her fellow England international.

[Alex Holowczak]

2) Efforts to encourage female participation, personally I think this is a more social problem occuring in the British Isles for the reason of low participation, other countries seem to have a higher participation rate (e.g. according to FIDE England have 43 active female compared with 56 for Slovenia, which has a population of 4% of England), free and discounted entries may help this a little but I think we have to address the underlying problem (god knows how you do that though)

I think we have to realise that chess isn't ever going to be as popular as it is in Eastern Europe. There's absolutely no way that we as players have the power to change a national attitude towards the game. I think the case is more for maximising what little we have. By offering training, you're hopefully improving the standard of the female players who are around at the moment. Free entry to an event isn't necessarily going make 100 female chessplayers who've previously never played turn up, but it will help subsidise the cost to the player of the coaching element. If you want to get more new players, then you probably need to start lower down at a junior level, rather than at something as elite as an e2e4 event.

[Alan Burke]

Sabrina Chevennes wrote ...
Oh gosh wow! Now I feel like quoting Carol Williams and putting a list of:
A) grow up
B) who are you anyway etc
but I won't
--------------

Obviously it is no use trying to debate the subject with Sabrina as she shown her true character by reverting to insults instead of just discussing the topic. The above quote is like those of football managers who say .. ''I won't say anything about the referee who gave the opposition a dubious penalty and ruled out one of our perfectly good goals, because if I do I will be in trouble.'' A pathetic veiled attempt to get their point of view across without having the guts to take the consequences for doing so.

Sabrina .. why stoop to such tactics instead of just giving a polite answer to a genuine question ?

Many thanks Sean for your very acceptable answer to my original question - which was asked in a genuine manner just so that we could understand the reason behind your decision. However, it's just a pity that Sabrina seemed to take my enquiry as an attack on women in the chess world and decided to reply with quotes of ''discouraging men'' etc. (Please note that on no occasion were women mentioned in such negative terms in any of my posts.)

[Ben Purton]

I personnally think that this idea is really cool...

I don't think your points are valid Mr Burke. This is a really cool thing designed to help a minority so surely promotes equality for all? I do not even know why anyone on this thread should have to reply to your verbal graffiti spread all over a positive thread.

robert nozick you are not...

[Sabrina Chevannes]

Thanks Ben

If anyone reads through this thread they can see that I started it to promote the event and did not throw any insults at anyone. I responded to a negative comment Mr. Burke said, not in a rude manner at all and I got an attacking reply. Yes, I have been sarcastic in my posts back, but it is just to show that I don't really have time to deal with all the negativity.

The majority of people can see that this is a positive thing and I am glad that we have people supporting our ideas.

The last post of Mr. Burke's again is rude and attacking and I haven't even responded to his previous one, but yet he writes ANOTHER directed at me.

As I said, I don't have time to deal with people who are negative and are just trying to pick a fight. I don't understand why he is reacting this way, but I do feel it is unnecessary.

I hope people just read that I am trying to help out women's chess and just hope that Mr. Burke has not ruined things by being so negative.

I am really trying not to direct this directly at him but to everyone in general as he already feels that I have been very personal. So, in general, PLEASE SUPPORT WOMEN'S CHESS BY COMING TO THIS EVENT, or perhaps make a donation to help us run future events. We are just sorting dates for a National Girls Championships we are trying to run this year.

Thanks

[Alan Burke]

Sabrina, in your very first reply to my original question, you stated about women ..''being surrounded by discouraging men.''. Surely that is an insult to many male players.

Let me say that our club possibly has more female members than any other in the country as well as the most pro-rata female/male players, so why should I wish to discourage them from playing.

All I originally asked was a question about the reasoning behind the free offer, which I stated I was not complaining against and yet again I will say that I was totally happy with the reply given by Sean.

I fully appreciate and admire your efforts for womens' chess, but just because somebody questions why females sometimes get 'benefits' over their male couterparts doesn't mean that they are 'anti-women', which is the stance I think you have taken on this matter.

Please carry on and do you efforts to promote womens' chess, but don't think that every man is trying to oppress you just because they might at times disagree or give the male point of view on your ideas.

[Sabrina Chevannes]

Sabrina, in your very first reply to my original question, you stated about women ..''being surrounded by discouraging men.''. Surely that is an insult to many male players.

Let me say that our club possibly has more female members than any other in the country as well as the most pro-rata female/male players, so why should I wish to discourage them from playing.

All I originally asked was a question about the reasoning behind the free offer, which I stated I was not complaining against and yet again I will say that I was totally happy with the reply given by Sean.

I fully appreciate and admire your efforts for womens' chess, but just because somebody questions why females sometimes get 'benefits' over their male couterparts doesn't mean that they are 'anti-women', which is the stance I think you have taken on this matter.

Please carry on and do you efforts to promote womens' chess, but don't think that every man is trying to oppress you just because they might at times disagree or give the male point of view on your ideas.

I'm getting very bored of repeating myself.

I have stated that what I said was the feedback I have had from several women as that is how they feel. Did not say that is how I feel. And you say that I am insulting many male players, but I think you will find that a lot of men admit that they discourage women chess players and belittle their titles etc. In fact, I don't want to go back into that debate!! OK, yes I have been trying to defend women's chess, but I guess I feel that sometimes I have not been respected as a chess players too and that all my achievements have been looked down on if they were "girls" titles and that people think I only achieved them because I am a girl. Perhaps they are my own issues. But the "discouraging men" comment was feedback, as I have mentioned already. And this was not at all aimed at you (god knows why you thought it was) as I clearly do not know you as you have pointed out so vividly.

Now please stop hassling me directly cos frankly you are starting to p**s me off.

I will now ignore all of your comments directed at me and just discuss women's chess.

Does anyone have any feedback about what else could be done at this event that could make it better?

[IM Jack Rudd]

Please calm down, everyone.