County Championship Finals

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
LawrenceCooper
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Re: County Championship Finals

Postby LawrenceCooper » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:57 pm

John Reyes wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Alan Walton wrote:From your post then, I assume you are saying GMan covers all these criteria, and any dual eligibility is sitting in the unknown background and not applicable to the current published rules of the competition


Personally I think most or all eligibility rules should be scrapped and you should be able to play for who you want to. That might be the only way to resolve the forty year old dispute which appears to have started with Lancashire objecting to a new county taking "their" players away.

But now it's been asked, perhaps the ECF could clarify the eligibility conditions for playing for Lancashire and presumably therefore why the Horton brothers satisfied them. The explicit rules about eligibility are muddy on what constitutes a county.




do you think the ECF will say when certain players was ok to play for Lancashire?


My guess and it's only a guess is that we won't hear anything unless there is an issue and if there were any borderline cases Lancashire would have checked in advance. If any of the players were/are deemed to be ineligible the result would have been amended by now.

Martin Carpenter
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Re: County Championship Finals

Postby Martin Carpenter » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:05 pm

They definitely checked in advance of the match.

As to why they were allowed, well it is mildly intriguing but probably only really GM with any true motivation, and even that is a bit weak with no GM open team.

I'd actually be tempted to do something like relaxing the rules to let people in a country that doesn't field a team in competition X to play for a geographically neighborhing one instead. Seems logical enough, maybe issues in implementing it in detail.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: County Championship Finals

Postby Michael Farthing » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:15 pm

Well it could simply be like the American primaries - you register at the start of season for the party (county) that you fancy and then you can play for them, Simples!

Not much of a change really: last Saturday I played for Lancs but I was quite entitled to play for Notts as well. That's my excuse for getting a draw - as well, of course, as not wanting to put one over on my good Notts opponent, who after all had been taught at school by my dad (really).

Neil Graham
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Re: County Championship Finals

Postby Neil Graham » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:31 pm

Going back to the question of Manchester's participation which Alan commented on. Certainly in the Midlands there has been a reduction in teams playing in the Counties Championship Union stages - as well as Manchester there are now no entries from Derbyshire, Shropshire and, of course, Staffordshire. This is due almost entirely to the lack of volunteers to run county teams rather than a lack of players. If Manchester were to play, they would be an automatic nominee in the Open Section should they so desire as all the other Midland Counties play in the Minor which enables the Union to take up three places in the national stages. If Manchester were to compete in the Open section in the NCCU they would have to face both Lancashire & Yorkshire so their progress would not by any means be guaranteed.

I have had a look at the NCCU Constitution to see what prevents Manchester joining that Union. Without wishing to open that discussion yet again Clause 3 clearly is there to prevent the Manchester Chess Federation becoming part of the NCCU - this clause of the Constitution would have to be deleted by a 67% majority before progress could be made and as the NCCU website states ..."The breakaway of a minority group in 1975 to form the Greater Manchester County Chess Association was a blow to the proud tradition of the Lancashire Chess Association."

The MCCU Constitution has the simple clause "The term “Midland Counties” shall include such counties or parts of counties as may be approved by the Union General Meeting".

Nick Grey
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Re: County Championship Finals

Postby Nick Grey » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:34 pm

ECF probably already takes a relaxed rule. There should be no reason why a player whose County does not play in a particular competition should be allowed to transfer to a neighbour. ECF should be encouraging players to play in their competitions.

As for correcting a few items in SCCU. Kent and Surrey are south of the River. Essex and Middlesex are north. Richmond is south of the River, Twickenham North. Even Oxford and Cambridge know the Surrey and Middlesex banks of the river.

Other than stopping Lancashire cricket playing in Greater Manchester that is not a lot else to moan about. However it seems that chess players like to play games and make rules for lots of arguments. Some counties and unions more than others.

Of course if there was any live play and evidence of rule infringements under the new rules, or inputting games there could be appeals.

The closeness of the results indicates that there is a lot of life in County Chess and looking forward to 17/18.

Alan Walton
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Re: County Championship Finals

Postby Alan Walton » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:56 pm

Neil Graham wrote:If Manchester were to compete in the Open section in the NCCU they would have to face both Lancashire & Yorkshire so their progress would not by any means be guaranteed


Perhaps that what people what, I would like the opportunity to play the top two teams in country (this season) each year to try and qualify

The current rules make it very easy to qualify for another county, just play for a club in that county if you are desperate to affiliate to them

All I am saying is that Greater Manchester boundaries should be recognized by the ECF and dual eligibility removed as it only penalises GM; just because somebody threw there toys around over 40 years ago doesn't allow the ECF to pander to Lancashire; rules are rules and they should be consistently applied

John Reyes
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Re: County Championship Finals

Postby John Reyes » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:12 pm

Alan Walton wrote:
Neil Graham wrote:If Manchester were to compete in the Open section in the NCCU they would have to face both Lancashire & Yorkshire so their progress would not by any means be guaranteed


Perhaps that what people what, I would like the opportunity to play the top two teams in country (this season) each year to try and qualify

The current rules make it very easy to qualify for another county, just play for a club in that county if you are desperate to affiliate to them

All I am saying is that Greater Manchester boundaries should be recognized by the ECF and dual eligibility removed as it only penalises GM; just because somebody threw there toys around over 40 years ago doesn't allow the ECF to pander to Lancashire; rules are rules and they should be consistently applied


HERE HERE!!!
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Neil Graham
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Re: County Championship Finals

Postby Neil Graham » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:00 pm

John Reyes wrote:
Alan Walton wrote:
Neil Graham wrote:If Manchester were to compete in the Open section in the NCCU they would have to face both Lancashire & Yorkshire so their progress would not by any means be guaranteed


Perhaps that what people what, I would like the opportunity to play the top two teams in country (this season) each year to try and qualify

The current rules make it very easy to qualify for another county, just play for a club in that county if you are desperate to affiliate to them

All I am saying is that Greater Manchester boundaries should be recognized by the ECF and dual eligibility removed as it only penalises GM; just because somebody threw there toys around over 40 years ago doesn't allow the ECF to pander to Lancashire; rules are rules and they should be consistently applied


HERE HERE!!!


The ECF and before that the BCF have recognised Greater Manchester - unfortunately it is the NCCU who will not do so and as far as I see that situation remains.

Neil Graham
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Re: County Championship Finals

Postby Neil Graham » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:12 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:Well it could simply be like the American primaries - you register at the start of season for the party (county) that you fancy and then you can play for them, Simples!

Not much of a change really: last Saturday I played for Lancs but I was quite entitled to play for Notts as well. That's my excuse for getting a draw - as well, of course, as not wanting to put one over on my good Notts opponent, who after all had been taught at school by my dad (really).


We didn't like to tell you that by the time your game finished - the last of 16 - Lancashire were 8.5-6.5 ahead!

Notts have now been U140 finalists in three of the last four years and performed consistently losing all three - to Hampshire, Kent and now Lancashire. Last year when we failed to reach the final we were beaten by Worcestershire, the eventual winners, in the semi-finals although we had beaten them in the MCCU zone.

There were two disastrous Nottinghamshire blunders towards the end of Saturday's match and our players were talking about having nightmares till the Autumn. However the match was over 16 boards and no one game is as important as the overall result. Despite a prediction of being "terrified", the teams were evenly matched right until the end.

I hope that the games will be published on the ECF website in due course. Incidentally who on earth chose the image to accompany the piece - "12 Angry Men?"

Alan Walton
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Re: County Championship Finals

Postby Alan Walton » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:15 pm

Neil Graham wrote:The ECF and before that the BCF have recognised Greater Manchester - unfortunately it is the NCCU who will not do so and as far as I see that situation remains.


That maybe the case; but in the county championship final this year, the ECF allowed dual eligibility so what I am proposing to do away with that, so that the current rules are equally applied; it is down to the ECF to be impartial and recognize all counties in the true sense, GM has it specific boundaries and these places are not in Lancashire since 1974

As previously said, GM's recent application to the NCCU offered Lancashire dual eligibility but they refused and suddenly used it for the final, this to me seems a little hypocritical

John Reyes
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Re: County Championship Finals

Postby John Reyes » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:56 pm

True alan,

Lancashire don't wanted Greater Manchester in the NCCU and they wanted us to become Lancashire B team!!

I'm glad Common sense is being used in the Manchester 4ncl team and I hope that Bill and Lancashire will put a line in the sand and let Manchester join the NCCU to give games like Manchester vs Yorkshire, Lancashire and Cumbria and now Merseyside
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John Reyes
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Re: County Championship Finals

Postby John Reyes » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:33 pm

what is the ECF line about this?
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Nick Grey
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Re: County Championship Finals

Postby Nick Grey » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:48 pm

Perhaps you ought to raise with ECF not that I would expect a response.
Was hoping of going through a season of County Chess without hearing about Bill.
Just pleased that my game against him last season comes out of my 12 months ECF results when published (normally next week) but who knows?

John Reyes
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Re: County Championship Finals

Postby John Reyes » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:11 am

Nick Grey wrote:Perhaps you ought to raise with ECF not that I would expect a response.
Was hoping of going through a season of County Chess without hearing about Bill.
Just pleased that my game against him last season comes out of my 12 months ECF results when published (normally next week) but who knows?



I did Email the Director of home chess with the question and I did get a answer!!

the only thing I did not understand is that why the ECF has not answer Alan Walton Questions about the Boundaries?

he did said that "All I am saying is that Greater Manchester boundaries should be recognized by the ECF and dual eligibility removed as it only penalises GM; just because somebody threw there toys around over 40 years ago doesn't allow the ECF to pander to Lancashire; rules are rules and they should be consistently applied"

at the end of the day, some teams did bend the rules and that should have been not on
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

Nick Grey
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Re: County Championship Finals

Postby Nick Grey » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:15 pm

Not sure if it is 75 years or 75 offences before an intervention. I wonder if the latest breach was because of a lot of Lancashire players being fed up of these issues?

Almost as bad as a suggestion that GLC should be brought back because a London Council cannot cope with the biggest community disaster since 1966.
Watching the news now where they have cameras that have been ready since lunch time. May even see a picture of all of us leaving at 3pm. New Leader and New Chief Executive at a Council Meeting.

Of course if GLC came back they would waste billions, provide even worse services and also throw millions at a chess tournament after notice came that they were going to be abolished.


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