Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
Alex Holowczak
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Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon May 21, 2012 8:57 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:True, but I refer you and others to the earlier discussion at http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3921
David Sedgwick (in that thread) wrote:For the record it has previously been ruled that these Regulations do not apply to events under ECF auspices.
This was also my understanding; I just added them because I thought it was worthwhile adding.

The CAA haven't got around to writing their own guidelines for this kind of thing to my knowledge, which presumably would apply to events under ECF auspicies. Maybe this is something for the next CAA AGM?

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon May 21, 2012 8:59 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote: surely the K+B one is not forced?
It think it depends on the colour of the potential queening square.

For example put a Black King on a1 and a Black Bishop on b1. Put the White King on a3 and Bc3 is mate. It doesn't work with anything other than a Bishop. So if it was K+B v K+b pawn, it would be a loss on time, but a draw on time if it was K+B v K + c pawn.
I said forced with best play, not a helpmate. Why would Black queen the pawn to a bishop. I'm trying to work out if there is a bishop equivalent of Stamma's mate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkmate#Stamma.27s_mate

If there isn't then the sentence "In some rare positions it is possible to force checkmate with a king and bishop versus a king and pawn or a king and knight versus a king and pawn" is just wrong (not uncommon with Wikipedia, but still). There are some interesting lines where K+B+B mate against K+B+P, but I think constructing positions where a lone bishop can force checkmate is hard - the king getting mated has to be very restricted in its movements (some positions with K+2P vs K+B are possible, but I don't think they are forced).

Andrew Bak
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Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Andrew Bak » Mon May 21, 2012 9:02 pm

So from what I gather,

a) A captain is NOT allowed to advise a player about ANYTHING on his own accord (i.e. unprompted by the player).

b) A player may ask a captain whether he should accept a draw offer to which the captain may ONLY reply "Yes", "No" or leave it up to the player.

c) A player may ask the captain the match score and the captain CAN provide this information

d) A player may ask the captain whether he needs to win or draw and the captain CAN provide this information.

I'm assuming that because this competition is under the auspices of the ECF, such discussions do not necessarily need to take place in front of an arbiter.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon May 21, 2012 9:13 pm

How about a player about to get in to time trouble authorising the team captain to tell him what is needed without the player needing to constantly ask the captain for updates? i.e. The player, realising they need to concentrate on the impending time scramble, letting the captain intervene if needed to say the match situation has changed and only a draw is now needed. Is that allowed? I must confess, I have at times, not as captain, told other players the match situation when asked. I suppose that is technically bad, is it? I suppose it comes from being a captain for some matches and not for others...

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon May 21, 2012 9:19 pm

David Sedgwick wrote: True, but I refer you and others to the earlier discussion at http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3921
We didn't highlight (b) in that discussion, namely the need to conduct the conversation in the hearing of the arbiter and in a language the arbiter would understand. I would have thought that only marginally practical at an Olympiad and out of the question at a 4NCL or County match.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon May 21, 2012 9:35 pm

Here is the CC rule:

C8. A player may ask his/her captain if he/she may offer or accept a draw. The captain may agree, refuse or tell the player to refer to the match result sheet. In no circumstances may the captain look at any game between receiving the request and giving his/her decision.

This is all a captain can do in the Counties Championship.

Andrew Bak
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Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Andrew Bak » Mon May 21, 2012 9:45 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:How about a player about to get in to time trouble authorising the team captain to tell him what is needed without the player needing to constantly ask the captain for updates? i.e. The player, realising they need to concentrate on the impending time scramble, letting the captain intervene if needed to say the match situation has changed and only a draw is now needed. Is that allowed? I must confess, I have at times, not as captain, told other players the match situation when asked. I suppose that is technically bad, is it? I suppose it comes from being a captain for some matches and not for others...
Furthermore, what if the captain is the player involved in the time scramble? Can he ask any of his teammates for advice about draws or the match score?

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon May 21, 2012 9:48 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:Here is the CC rule:

C8. A player may ask his/her captain if he/she may offer or accept a draw. The captain may agree, refuse or tell the player to refer to the match result sheet. In no circumstances may the captain look at any game between receiving the request and giving his/her decision.

This is all a captain can do in the Counties Championship.
Though a good captain will not need to look at any games, but will already have a mental picture of what is needed. And be circling the boards to update that mental picture (though obviously not after being asked by a player and before answering, but inbetween being asked and after answering). This is why a non-playing captain is an advantage.

David Sedgwick
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Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by David Sedgwick » Mon May 21, 2012 11:31 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
David Sedgwick wrote:True, but I refer you and others to the earlier discussion at http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3921
David Sedgwick (in that thread) wrote:For the record it has previously been ruled that these Regulations do not apply to events under ECF auspices.
This was also my understanding; I just added them because I thought it was worthwhile adding.

The CAA haven't got around to writing their own guidelines for this kind of thing to my knowledge, which presumably would apply to events under ECF auspicies. Maybe this is something for the next CAA AGM?
The idea of producing an updated version of the old "BCF Rules for Events Played under its Auspices" was considered by Adam Raoof a couple of years ago. When he floated the idea on this Forum, the general reaction was not very favourable.

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1753

Thank you for pointing out that there is a specific regulation about the role of match captains in the Rules of the Counties Championships. I had completely overlooked this.

Andrew Bak
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Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Andrew Bak » Wed May 23, 2012 7:33 pm

"They will still talk about this day; when our grandchildren are grandfather’s; sitting in their luxury padded recliners, by their electronic fireplaces with acid snow falling outside. While sitting there they will re-tell the tale of when the ‘SIXTEEN’ brave men from God’s own county raided deep into into enemy territory where they took on the mighty Kent; those giants of ‘men’ who had conquered all before them up to and including the distant lands of Leicestershire."

Read a full account of Yorkshire U160 vs Kent U160 (beneath the other two boring Yorkshire County matches) here

Leonard Barden
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Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Leonard Barden » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:25 pm