Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
Andrew Bak
Posts: 835
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:48 am
Location: Bradford
Contact:

Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Andrew Bak » Mon May 21, 2012 7:18 pm

As I'm sure a lot of forumites are aware, three of Yorkshire's teams played this weekend in the Quarter-Finals of the County Championship. I can assure you that none of the matches were boring!

Reports of all the matches (yes, including the Open!) are here.

User avatar
Christopher Kreuzer
Posts: 8806
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
Location: London

Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon May 21, 2012 7:48 pm

Andrew Bak wrote:As I'm sure a lot of forumites are aware, three of Yorkshire's teams played this weekend in the Quarter-Finals of the County Championship. I can assure you that none of the matches were boring!

Reports of all the matches (yes, including the Open!) are here.
Thanks for that. About the Open match, was the Yorkshire player aware that only a draw was needed, and did he not have time to take the knight with the newly created Queen? Maybe he didn't even have time to think of that?

User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 4818
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford
Contact:

Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Mon May 21, 2012 8:02 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:About the Open match, was the Yorkshire player aware that only a draw was needed, and did he not have time to take the knight with the newly created Queen? Maybe he didn't even have time to think of that?
Well, his best option - if he knew that he only needed a draw - was to make a 10.2 claim, because that would have been a stone-cold "claim accepted". If the reports in the other thread are correct, he'd only just queened when his flag fell.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon May 21, 2012 8:10 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote: Well, his best option - if he knew that he only needed a draw - was to make a 10.2 claim, because that would have been a stone-cold "claim accepted". If the reports in the other thread are correct, he'd only just queened when his flag fell.
Knight and two against Knight would be a pretty solid claim as well. The match captain is allowed to talk to players to tell them the match score, but I think only if asked. What's the legality of holding up a sign saying "Yorks 8 Somerset 7, draw needed"? The player might have thought incorrectly that a sole knight wasn't mating material and therefore he wasn't risking anything by playing.

User avatar
Christopher Kreuzer
Posts: 8806
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
Location: London

Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon May 21, 2012 8:17 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:About the Open match, was the Yorkshire player aware that only a draw was needed, and did he not have time to take the knight with the newly created Queen? Maybe he didn't even have time to think of that?
Well, his best option - if he knew that he only needed a draw - was to make a 10.2 claim, because that would have been a stone-cold "claim accepted". If the reports in the other thread are correct, he'd only just queened when his flag fell.
Would a 10.2 claim before queening have also been accepted? I guess so, as with only a knight left, no progress was possible. I guess it hinges on how much time between the penultimate game finishing, whether and how captains can inform their players of what is needed (are they allowed to interrupt a time scramble, and might that do more harm than good?).

Incidentally, how many people here agree with the opinion (from the Yorkshire captain) that this is a: "ridiculous FIDE rule"? Referring to 'claim[ing] a win because [the player] can legally reach a position with a series of moves, no matter how improbable, to deliver a checkmate'. Is there no other way to handle such positions? Can you not have a requirement that the side that claims a win on time would need to be able to mate against a bare king (i.e. remove all remaining pieces other than the king of the side that lost on time), and enumerate the exceptions (how many are there)?

User avatar
Christopher Kreuzer
Posts: 8806
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
Location: London

Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon May 21, 2012 8:20 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
IM Jack Rudd wrote: Well, his best option - if he knew that he only needed a draw - was to make a 10.2 claim, because that would have been a stone-cold "claim accepted". If the reports in the other thread are correct, he'd only just queened when his flag fell.
Knight and two against Knight would be a pretty solid claim as well. The match captain is allowed to talk to players to tell them the match score, but I think only if asked. What's the legality of holding up a sign saying "Yorks 8 Somerset 7, draw needed"? The player might have thought incorrectly that a sole knight wasn't mating material and therefore he wasn't risking anything by playing.
What are the material balances where it is still mating material, but not forced (needs help from the opponent)? K vs K+N+N is one, where the lone king can construct a helpmate, but it can't be forced. K+P vs K+N can be either a forced mate (with best play from specific positions) or only a helpmate (needs help from the opponent).

A few are here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkmate# ... _positions

That article also says (earlier): "In some rare positions it is possible to force checkmate with a king and bishop versus a king and pawn or a king and knight versus a king and pawn." I've seen the K+N vs K+P one, but not the K+B vs K+P - I think that is wrong, surely the K+B one is not forced?

Andrew Bak
Posts: 835
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:48 am
Location: Bradford
Contact:

Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Andrew Bak » Mon May 21, 2012 8:36 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Andrew Bak wrote:As I'm sure a lot of forumites are aware, three of Yorkshire's teams played this weekend in the Quarter-Finals of the County Championship. I can assure you that none of the matches were boring!

Reports of all the matches (yes, including the Open!) are here.
Thanks for that. About the Open match, was the Yorkshire player aware that only a draw was needed, and did he not have time to take the knight with the newly created Queen? Maybe he didn't even have time to think of that?
From what I gather, there was another game(s) also finishing quite late so it is unlikely that the player concerned would know precisely what the match score was and thus what was required to clinch the match, but that is pure speculation on my part as I was not there.

I have played with this player for a number of years and am confident that if he knew the match situation and knew exactly how long he had left, he would have tried to secure the draw.

What are the rules about asking your captain what the match score is and what the captain is allowed to tell you? Assuming your captain is allowed to tell you the match score, can he add a suplementary sentence such as "we only need a draw to win the match" or, "we need you to win at all costs"?

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon May 21, 2012 8:37 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: surely the K+B one is not forced?
It think it depends on the colour of the potential queening square.

For example put a Black King on a1 and a Black Bishop on b1. Put the White King on a3 and Bc3 is mate. It doesn't work with anything other than a Bishop. So if it was K+B v K+b pawn, it would be a loss on time, but a draw on time if it was K+B v K + c pawn.

I don't think there's anything silly about the FIDE rule. It gives priority to the concept that you lose if you run out of time with exceptions; there being no possible mate that can be concocted and the possibility for the winning (or even drawing) player to bail out with a 10.2 claim/ Appendix D claim.

(edit) Having looked at the wiki link, you don't need opposite Bishops to rule a flag fall with K+P v K+B as a loss. (/edit)

Last edited by Roger de Coverly on Mon May 21, 2012 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon May 21, 2012 8:41 pm

Andrew Bak wrote: What are the rules about asking your captain what the match score is and what the captain is allowed to tell you? Assuming your captain is allowed to tell you the match score, can he add a suplementary sentence such as "we only need a draw to win the match" or, "we need you to win at all costs"?
As far as I am aware, it's completely legal to ask. In something like the 4NCL, you sometimes need to know what result you need in a last round to make a board point tie break work for your team. So you may need the match captain to hint at what's going on in other matches.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon May 21, 2012 8:46 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Andrew Bak wrote: What are the rules about asking your captain what the match score is and what the captain is allowed to tell you? Assuming your captain is allowed to tell you the match score, can he add a suplementary sentence such as "we only need a draw to win the match" or, "we need you to win at all costs"?
As far as I am aware, it's completely legal to ask. In something like the 4NCL, you sometimes need to know what result you need in a last round to make a board point tie break work for your team. So you may need the match captain to hint at what's going on in other matches.
Here's what the FIDE Tournament Rules say:

16. Team Captain’s Role in Team Tournaments
(a) The role of a team captain is basically an administrative one during play. Depending on the regulations of the specific competition, the captain shall be required to deliver, at a specific time, a written list naming the players in his team who will participate in each round, communicate to his players their pairing, sign the protocol indicating the results in the match at the end of the play, etc.
(b) Whenever the team captain speaks to one of his players, he should do so only through or in the presence of an arbiter using a language the arbiter can understand.
(c) A captain is entitled to advise the players of his team to make or accept an offer of a draw or to resign a game, unless the regulations of the event stipulate otherwise. He must confine himself only to brief information, based solely on the circumstances pertaining to the match. He may say to a player, “offer a draw”, “accept the draw”, or “resign the game”. For example, if asked by a player whether he should accept an offer of a draw, the captain should answer “yes”, “no”, or delegate the decision to the player himself. He shall give no information to a player concerning the position on the chess board and/or the clock times, nor consult any other person and/or computer as to the state of the game.
The captain shall abstain from any intervention during play.
(d) Players are subject to the same prohibitions. Even though in a team competition there is a certain team loyalty, which goes beyond a player’s individual game, a game of chess is basically a contest between two players. Therefore, a player must have the final say over the conduct of his own game. Although the advice of the captain should weigh heavily with the player, the player is not absolutely compelled to accept that advice. Likewise, the captain cannot act on behalf of a player and his game without the knowledge and consent of the player.
(e) A team captain should encourage his team always to follow both the letter and the spirit of Article 12 of the FIDE Laws of Chess concerning the conduct of the players. Team championships, in particular, should be conducted in the spirit of the highest sportsmanship.

User avatar
Christopher Kreuzer
Posts: 8806
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
Location: London

Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon May 21, 2012 8:47 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Andrew Bak wrote: What are the rules about asking your captain what the match score is and what the captain is allowed to tell you? Assuming your captain is allowed to tell you the match score, can he add a suplementary sentence such as "we only need a draw to win the match" or, "we need you to win at all costs"?
As far as I am aware, it's completely legal to ask. In something like the 4NCL, you sometimes need to know what result you need in a last round to make a board point tie break work for your team. So you may need the match captain to hint at what's going on in other matches.
Can you ask your captain what positions are still considered mating material (i.e. is it safe to play on for a win or not)? Or to put that more bluntly, if I lose on time, is it a draw or a loss? Can you ask that? I suspect not.

Sean Hewitt
Posts: 2193
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Sean Hewitt » Mon May 21, 2012 8:48 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:In something like the 4NCL, you sometimes need to know what result you need in a last round to make a board point tie break work for your team. So you may need the match captain to hint at what's going on in other matches.
Alex H will no doubt advise the situation in the county champs. I asked this very question at round 11 of the 4NCL. I was advised that I could advise the match score only if asked, and advise on offering or accepting a draw but again, only if asked. I made sure my players new this in advance - and they kept asking!

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon May 21, 2012 8:49 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: Would a 10.2 claim before queening have also been accepted? I guess so, as with only a knight left, no progress was possible.
I'm not sure "progress" is relevant. The phrase "cannot be won by normal means" would seem to cover it. Assuming no arbiter deemed present, the game ceases with the claim.

David Sedgwick
Posts: 5249
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Location: Croydon
Contact:

Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by David Sedgwick » Mon May 21, 2012 8:53 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote: Here's what the FIDE Tournament Rules say:

16. Team Captain’s Role in Team Tournaments
(a) The role of a team captain is basically an administrative one during play. Depending on the regulations of the specific competition, the captain shall be required to deliver, at a specific time, a written list naming the players in his team who will participate in each round, communicate to his players their pairing, sign the protocol indicating the results in the match at the end of the play, etc.
(b) Whenever the team captain speaks to one of his players, he should do so only through or in the presence of an arbiter using a language the arbiter can understand.
(c) A captain is entitled to advise the players of his team to make or accept an offer of a draw or to resign a game, unless the regulations of the event stipulate otherwise. He must confine himself only to brief information, based solely on the circumstances pertaining to the match. He may say to a player, “offer a draw”, “accept the draw”, or “resign the game”. For example, if asked by a player whether he should accept an offer of a draw, the captain should answer “yes”, “no”, or delegate the decision to the player himself. He shall give no information to a player concerning the position on the chess board and/or the clock times, nor consult any other person and/or computer as to the state of the game.
The captain shall abstain from any intervention during play.
(d) Players are subject to the same prohibitions. Even though in a team competition there is a certain team loyalty, which goes beyond a player’s individual game, a game of chess is basically a contest between two players. Therefore, a player must have the final say over the conduct of his own game. Although the advice of the captain should weigh heavily with the player, the player is not absolutely compelled to accept that advice. Likewise, the captain cannot act on behalf of a player and his game without the knowledge and consent of the player.
(e) A team captain should encourage his team always to follow both the letter and the spirit of Article 12 of the FIDE Laws of Chess concerning the conduct of the players. Team championships, in particular, should be conducted in the spirit of the highest sportsmanship.
True, but I refer you and others to the earlier discussion at http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3921
David Sedgwick (in that thread) wrote:For the record it has previously been ruled that these Regulations do not apply to events under ECF auspices.

In the match between Surrey and Essex in the Final of the then U175 Division in 2008, the match situation turned dramatically in favour of Surrey when my opponent blundered and allowed mate in one. This meant that Surrey then only needed a draw in the last game to finish, in which we stood better and our player had assumed he would need to win. Our captain asked if he could advise the player of the changed state of affairs. He was told firmly by the arbiter that he must not say anything unless the player made an unprompted enquiry about the match score.
As to the allegedly "ridiculous" nature of the present Law, this is something which FIDE has discussed a number of times over the years. I don't think there's any satisfactory solution and I stand by my original comment: Roll on small increments.
Last edited by David Sedgwick on Mon May 21, 2012 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Yorkshire's adventures at the National Quarter-Finals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon May 21, 2012 8:55 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:In something like the 4NCL, you sometimes need to know what result you need in a last round to make a board point tie break work for your team. So you may need the match captain to hint at what's going on in other matches.
Alex H will no doubt advise the situation in the county champs. I asked this very question at round 11 of the 4NCL. I was advised that I could advise the match score only if asked, and advise on offering or accepting a draw but again, only if asked. I made sure my players new this in advance - and they kept asking!
My understanding is the same as Sean's.

It is what will be expected of teams when it comes to the Finals in Leicester. I'll try to remember to say this in my e-mail to the teams reaching the Final when we get that far.

Post Reply