County Championship Finals

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
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Ihor Lewyk
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Ihor Lewyk » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:09 pm

There is also a report with Yorkshire's perspective on the Yorkshire site.

http://yorkshirechess.org/county-champi ... al-report/

Alex Holowczak
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:13 pm

Ihor Lewyk wrote:There is also a report with Yorkshire's perspective on the Yorkshire site.

http://yorkshirechess.org/county-champi ... al-report/
Yorkshire CA website wrote:The organisers made every effort to make the players comfortable with ample space, great layout of covered tables with wooden sets and digital clocks for nearly all the matches. It was a fitting setting for such a grand occasion.
Whey! Someone noticed (in as much as they've commented publicly about them!) at last. :D

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:25 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Ihor Lewyk wrote:There is also a report with Yorkshire's perspective on the Yorkshire site.

http://yorkshirechess.org/county-champi ... al-report/
Yorkshire CA website wrote:The organisers made every effort to make the players comfortable with ample space, great layout of covered tables with wooden sets and digital clocks for nearly all the matches. It was a fitting setting for such a grand occasion.
Whey! Someone noticed (in as much as they've commented publicly about them!) at last. :D
The tables were covered? I hadn't noticed... I did notice that the chair I sat on seemed to be about to collapse, but didn't in the end. I am puzzled that Mick lamented the lack of an arbiter, but the report from Yorkshire stated: "Meanwhile Paul Howden only had seconds left and had to employ the arbiter to claim a draw on his game." Would the arbiting team have a record of whether any 10.2 claims were made and/or awarded? Is that the sort of thing that arbiters keep records of or not?

As I said, it looked like this happened in the last board to finish in the Open (bit of a non-event as the match had effectively been decided already) - large crowd that David Welch managed to get to the front of, and Marcus Osborne (of Surrey), right at the end with hands shaking, stopped the clock and looked around for an arbiter to whom to make a claim, which appeared (from where I was watching) to be converted to a draw offer that the Middlesex player accepted (may have checked with his captain first, not sure). It was the last game still going, but the frustrating thing was that neither of the players (both presumably very experienced) seemed to be aware of the match situation. Marcus, when he got up after the game, turned to me (not sure if he even realised I was a Middlesex player) and asked what the match result was. I suppose it was a bit cruel of me to tell him that if he had won Surrey would have won on board count (though he had been losing on the board for some time), but do players not try and at least find out the match situation before going into a time scramble? Is it really the case that captains are not allowed to update players on the match situation if the players are furiously playing out a time scramble and oblivious to the crowd around them?

Alex Holowczak
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:44 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:The tables were covered? I hadn't noticed...
Well, they weren't covered last year. That was one of my attempted improvements to the playing conditions...
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Would the arbiting team have a record of whether any 10.2 claims were made and/or awarded? Is that the sort of thing that arbiters keep records of or not?
Not really. I was aware of two such claims being made, but I wasn't given chapter and verse about them.
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Is it really the case that captains are not allowed to update players on the match situation if the players are furiously playing out a time scramble and oblivious to the crowd around them?
The role of the captain is in the rules:

C8. A player may ask his/her captain if he/she may offer or accept a draw. The captain may agree, refuse or tell the player to refer to the match result sheet. In no circumstances may the captain look at any game between receiving the request and giving his/her decision.

Mick Norris
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Mick Norris » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:53 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Links to a few more reports:

The U180 and U160 match reports from Yorkshire:

http://yorkshirechess.org/county-champi ... al-report/
Which for the record is inaccurate, as Jon Lonsdale was the last to finish, having to produce a mate with R+K v K, they obviously don't resign in Yorkshire :wink:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
And a photo on the front page of the MCCU site:

http://www.mccu.org.uk/index.htm

Not sure where that photo will end up later on, but it is currently there.
The photo came from Mark Davey at Middlesex, so nice to publicly thank him for it
Any postings on here represent my personal views

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:23 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Is it really the case that captains are not allowed to update players on the match situation if the players are furiously playing out a time scramble and oblivious to the crowd around them?
The role of the captain is in the rules:

C8. A player may ask his/her captain if he/she may offer or accept a draw. The captain may agree, refuse or tell the player to refer to the match result sheet. In no circumstances may the captain look at any game between receiving the request and giving his/her decision.
That doesn't answer my question. What I wanted was an explicit statement of whether captains are allowed to pro-actively refer players to the match result sheet with words to the effect "a few more results have come in, and this is the current position in the match", or even more simply "we need a draw to win the match". I can't believe that rules actually forbid captains from telling their players this if the players sit at the board and don't keep themselves updated on the match situation.

But presuming that the captain has carefully instructed players to keep themselves abreast of the match score if their game looks like being one of the last to finish in a close match, what happens if a player comes over to the match result sheet, but doesn't have time to work out the board count (for example)? Is he or she allowed to ask the captain, "is a draw on my board enough to win the match?" (this is a different question to asking "can I offer/accept a draw?") Surely the rules aren't forbidding that? Some match captains keep a running score of board count on their own copy of the result sheet. Are they allowed to refer their players to that or is that a form of 'making notes'?

David Pardoe
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by David Pardoe » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:25 am

The Finals day at Leicester was a great success and advert for english chess.....played in good old fashioned style, at a typical College Hall. No frills...but some new technology...and lots of effort `behind the scenes` by all sorts of dedicated officials, without whom nothing would be possible.
I had some concerns about navigating through the centre of Leicester at mid day on Saturday...but that proved relatively straight forward, thanks to our navigator, who knew Leicester, and read the maps I`d brought. For those travelling by train, this venue proved very convenient as Leicester railway station was within earshot....you could hear the train announcements. But you`d need to be a damned fast runner to catch the forementioned trains.
Its a long day with about 5 hours driving and 6 hours chess for many players (if you include the presentations), so quite a challenging day, particularly for the older statesmen in the teams.
I`ve said before that it might be good to consider a jamboree style, 2 day Finals (combining with semi finals), at a plush venue like Barcelo at Hinckley Island... where 4NCL meet.
It would create great opportunities for a real show piece event, with good press presence to properly publicise the english game in our regional Press. It could save on venue hire by cutting out `semi-final` travel & venue hire (which could be used to help fund a `classic` Finals event).
The great SCCU population advantage showed through, with a convincing result for that corner. Pity that the west and east were unrepresented. It would be good to see a more balanced representation.
One thing that might help redress this balance would be a rule change to revert back to the previous wider grading boundaries. I`d urge that serious consideration be given to this at this years ECF AGM. It might take pressure off many teams to turn out full sides, and also help to reduce potential defaults. I think it is very poor when teams reach the National stages and then end up defaulting matches, not least, because it deprives other teams of a place that they might have been able to take up.
PS.. As an additional measure, an added rule defining team structure might be useful ..as follows. For the Open Section, no more than 6 players graded over 200, per team, and a miniumum of 5 players graded U185, might be useful, along with a rule stating that the average `team grade` must not exceed say 195 The idea of this ruling is to tempor the mega bonecrushers from dominating and monopolising proceedings, and also to try to ensure that players at the lower end of the grading bands dont end up getting excluded. Such limits could be reflected throughout the grade bands

Anyone who thinks county chess is boring should have been present at these finals...with 3 or 4 titles being decided by tie-breaks and other close results.
In the clash of the northern titans, the Manchester U160 team just pipped Yorkshire on board count in a gripping and tense match, that went all the way to the end of the 5-hour session, with the initiative ebbing and flowing. With 6 games to play, and one hours play remaining, there was nothing between the teams. Then everything seemed to turn on its head as the clocks ran down, and spectators gathered to observe the final battles...the initiative changed hands as the `tension` mounted, and players scurried between boards to try to keep track of progress. All great fun....the 8-8 score line represented an excellent performance by both sets of players.
Was the event enjoyable...yes. Certainly to come away with a positive team result is the icing on the cake.
Some good banter between players...in low voices, as the matches progressed. Its great that players from across various areas can get together for an event like this..despite its percieved foibles.
But chess players are a strange breed....they take there `sport` quite seriously, and play with fair intensity.
Communication is somewhat stifled, so not a particularly obvious camaradory...but friendly exchanges and pleasantories do occur, and its nice to meet up with fellow players from across the land and exchange news and opinions. So, behind the serious battles for `masters of the universe` there is a sort of background buzz. But no chance to sink a few pints with team mates over a meal, or aught so party popping on these occasions. Long distance travelling and other constrainst limit the social to brief chatter....
Long may it continue.....
If I had a message for players/captains...its to plan match arrangements early and thouroghly. Ensure early team selection...and solid transport arrangements. Try to ensure that several potential `reserves` are in place. One of the big bogey men of this event is `late dropouts`. Invariably (as sodds law dictates) its one or two higher board players, who at late notice, cant make it. But all players should be briefed early regarding travel arrangements , etc...and regular contact maintained to avoid players `forgetting` etc....
With this in place...and I`d urge all counties to appoint captains and vice captains, because I believe its a two man job, at least to regularly organise these 16 board matches. Hopefully, by doing this, we can avoid some of those `defaults` that seem to occur. And yes, its a fact of life that date clashes will arise, and organisors do try to avoid such things. Captains need to anticipate these at an early point, and maybe take alternative measures, or even default `early` so that other teams might be substituted, or teams repaired against new opposition. I`d like some scope for drafting in `replacement teams` to be considered as a possibility. If a team could give 2 or 3 weeks notice, it might be possible in some cases.
Last edited by David Pardoe on Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
BRING BACK THE BCF

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:33 pm

The results sheets for the finals here appear to be incomplete:

http://www.englishchess.org.uk/?page_id=36

Mick Norris
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:34 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:Which brings me to the time control, what a farce as usual - why not have a sensible time control with increment, and not need as many arbiters?
I think this is to avoid the event over-running in terms of time. If there are not enough arbiters, one thing is to have a different (reduced) time control for the lower sections (the two 12-board matches, the U100 and U120), so they finish earlier. You do need to make sure those sections finishing early don't make too much noise, as other matches will still be going on, and time scrambles don't always happen at the end of a playing session, but it might help.
We booked the semi-final venue at Water Orton for a fixed time, so we played 2 hours each plus 10 seconds a move increment from move 1 - this would have proven problematic if any game had gone to move 180 :lol:

Also, we played 6 very competitive matches on the way without an arbiter in sight, why do we need one for the final?

The best arbiter at the venue on Saturday wasn't even performing arbiter duties (you can fill in your own choice of Alex, Sean or Cyril in that sentence)
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Alex Holowczak
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:08 am

The games can now be seen on the homepage of the ECF website. Board 1 of each final is shown by default; drop the list down to see other games.

Click "Read more" to see the other sections. The direct link to that page is here: http://www.englishchess.org.uk/?p=20150#more-20150

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:33 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:The games can now be seen on the homepage of the ECF website. Board 1 of each final is shown by default; drop the list down to see other games.

Click "Read more" to see the other sections. The direct link to that page is here: http://www.englishchess.org.uk/?p=20150#more-20150
Many thanks for this. A very impressive service.

Has anyone spotted any particularly worthy games?

Mick Norris
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:24 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:The games can now be seen on the homepage of the ECF website. Board 1 of each final is shown by default; drop the list down to see other games.

Click "Read more" to see the other sections. The direct link to that page is here: http://www.englishchess.org.uk/?p=20150#more-20150
Many thanks for this. A very impressive service.

Has anyone spotted any particularly worthy games?
I would avoid board 4 in the U60 - it was rubbish :lol:
Any postings on here represent my personal views

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Joey Stewart
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Joey Stewart » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:00 pm

David Pardoe wrote:
One thing that might help redress this balance would be a rule change to revert back to the previous wider grading boundaries. I`d urge that serious consideration be given to this at this years ECF AGM. It might take pressure off many teams to turn out full sides, and also help to reduce potential defaults. I think it is very poor when teams reach the National stages and then end up defaulting matches, not least, because it deprives other teams of a place that they might have been able to take up.
PS.. As an additional measure, an added rule defining team structure might be useful ..as follows. For the Open Section, no more than 6 players graded over 200, per team, and a miniumum of 5 players graded U185, might be useful, along with a rule stating that the average `team grade` must not exceed say 195 The idea of this ruling is to tempor the mega bonecrushers from dominating and monopolising proceedings, and also to try to ensure that players at the lower end of the grading bands dont end up getting excluded. Such limits could be reflected throughout the grade bands
It would cease to be an 'open' section if it had restrictions placed on it - it would be better to have a slightly more restricted 'minor' section though, the current grade limit of an under 180 average seems to be too easy for any county to play in - We need to get more of the skulkers hiding in the minors back up in the open where they can take the beatings they deserve!
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:14 pm

Joey Stewart wrote:We need to get more of the skulkers hiding in the minors back up in the open where they can take the beatings they deserve!
Do you mean teams like Hertfordshire, whose Open team was mostly trounced and scored 0/5 in the SCCU stage of the competition (Herts did not enter a team in the U180 section or U100 section, but did in the U160, U140, and U120).

http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/table.htm

Hertfordshire were then nominated for the Minor competition in the ECF stages and won that.

http://www.englishchess.org.uk/?page_id=36

It seems a bit strange, but then I've never really understood the criteria for the Minor competition - is it like a Plate competition for the Open?

Sean Hewitt
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Sean Hewitt » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:54 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:It seems a bit strange, but then I've never really understood the criteria for the Minor competition - is it like a Plate competition for the Open?
It's a competition open to all teams as long as the average of the team is under 180. In the MCCU teams enter either the Open or Minor at the outset of the season. In the SCCU, the Minor seems to be treated as a plate competition.