2013 Final Stage

[Andrew Stone]

Thanks Nick. Well done on drawing with our super 225 Zehra (and for your IM norm at the 4NCL). My captain has just told me your board 12 was not registered.

[Richard Bates]

The results page is now showing a penalty point for Warwickshire (meaning they only just made a positive score at 1-14) versus Middlesex, and also one for Somerset versus Lancashire. Anyone know what these penalties were for? Warks had a default but Somerset didn't.

Apparently an ungraded player needs "clearance" to play in the Open...?!

I think everyone is going to get hacked off pretty quickly if every other match has to wait for a stewards' enquiry whilst the Controller determines if penalty points need to be applied. Still Alex does like his rules...

On ECF membership - if the rule is to exist, i don't see why this can't be applied more flexibly as with League chess, with membership (or an equivalent fine to the County) applied retrospectively. There will inevitably be incidences where players are selected and mix ups occur over membership. Better to keep the financial aspects separate from the integrity of the competition IMO.

[Alex Holowczak]

Apparently an ungraded player needs "clearance" to play in the Open...?!

I think everyone is going to get hacked off pretty quickly if every other match has to wait for a stewards' enquiry whilst the Controller determines if penalty points need to be applied. Still Alex does like his rules...

Council expressed a desire to move from a "descending order of strength" rule to a 10-point rule. A consequence of this is the need to clear an ungraded player to play in the Open.

[Richard Bates]

Apparently an ungraded player needs "clearance" to play in the Open...?!

I think everyone is going to get hacked off pretty quickly if every other match has to wait for a stewards' enquiry whilst the Controller determines if penalty points need to be applied. Still Alex does like his rules...

Council expressed a desire to move from a "descending order of strength" rule to a 10-point rule. A consequence of this is the need to clear an ungraded player to play in the Open.

Well I suppose it's hardly news to have Council voting for a load of nonsense. Who put the proposals forward for them to express a view upon?

Any rigid system of grading orders is ridiculous in a situation where the Counties' competition deliberately uses grades which are out-of-date by definition. And increasingly more volatile and misleading. C'est la vie.

[Alex Holowczak]

Well I suppose it's hardly news to have Council voting for a load of nonsense. Who put the proposals forward for them to express a view upon?

Me, but I did so neutrally. I wasn't fussed what was decided. I thought it was worth asking the question given the rules were being rewritten anyway.

Any rigid system of grading orders is ridiculous in a situation where the Counties' competition deliberately uses grades which are out-of-date by definition. And increasingly more volatile and misleading. C'est la vie.

We don't deliberately use out of date grades for board order purposes. Captains who want to use other published grades for board order purposes can, upon request.

And even then, the 10-point rule is only enforced if the opposing captain wants it to be enforced. If he's quite happy with the board order and it doesn't comply with this rule, then that's fine.

[Richard Bates]

Just as a matter of interest - in the game where the result was changed - what gets submitted for grading?

[Nick Ivell]

Jim Sumner played on an appropriate board, as anyone who knows his strength will attest. I will say in passing that he played a fine game, unlike many people including me... What the hell is going on here? When I checked the scorelist I thought his loss was a typo.

[Alex Holowczak]

Just as a matter of interest - in the game where the result was changed - what gets submitted for grading?

The actual result of the game as played. I've got a record of them for this purpose.

[Alex Holowczak]

Jim Sumner played on an appropriate board, as anyone who knows his strength will attest. I will say in passing that he played a fine game, unlike many people including me... What the hell is going on here? When I checked the scorelist I thought his loss was a typo.

Sumner is ungraded, and was not cleared to play in advance. He is therefore ineligible under the rules, and so his game is declared a loss, and 1 penalty point was imposed upon Lancashire.

[Nick Ivell]

I object to this default on principle. Leaving principle to one side, it is a good job this absurd loss made no difference to the result of the match.

As we won the match, I will not argue the point!

[Alex Holowczak]

Just to point out about the rules, the following happened:

All of the counties are on ECF Council. The new rules were presented to Council, so county delegates had a chance to see them then. The changes were made. The delegates should have fed these back to their captains at that point.

All of the Union Reps were asked to make sure their counties confirmed they wished to be nominated, and were aware of the new rules before accepting nomination.

If those two paths failed, all of the captains were e-mailed at the start of the competition, and were sent links to the rules, as well as explanations of most of the critical changes. The e-mail even stressed the importance of reading the new rules, given they were completely re-written.

Not really sure what I can do if all three of these things still bring about penalties.

[Alan Walton]

So there is a rule about informing the ECF of ungraded players before they play, but I would have suspected this rule is in place for players new to the ECF grading system, considering Jim Summer was graded in the high 190s in 2011 then this should be enough for him to be cleared for the open team

Alex, do you actually check the history on the grading database?

[Mick Norris]

A player who has no grade in the list current at the start of the season may play in the Final Stage only if permission has been previously obtained from the Controller. Requests for permission must be submitted to the Controller so as to arrive at least seven days before the player is due to play. The team captain must submit evidence from the local grader or master list or other source. Such a player shall be declared ineligible (or no longer eligible) if the Controller is not (or has ceased to be) entirely convinced that the player’s strength is clearly below the relevant grading limits. The Controller shall, as soon as practical, assign the player a grading for the purposes of the Championship only.

I always assumed clearance was needed for all sections other than the Open

[Richard Bates]

A player who has no grade in the list current at the start of the season may play in the Final Stage only if permission has been previously obtained from the Controller. Requests for permission must be submitted to the Controller so as to arrive at least seven days before the player is due to play. The team captain must submit evidence from the local grader or master list or other source. Such a player shall be declared ineligible (or no longer eligible) if the Controller is not (or has ceased to be) entirely convinced that the player’s strength is clearly below the relevant grading limits. The Controller shall, as soon as practical, assign the player a grading for the purposes of the Championship only.

I always assumed clearance was needed for all sections other than the Open

Well, yes. The only reference to grounds for ineligibility being that the player's strength is above the relevant grading limit would rather lead to that conclusion. Why should you have to ask for permission to play a player when there are no grounds for refusal?!

I assume that Alex's case relates to the Controller having to officially assign a grade for board order purposes. Although since that can be overruled by agreement of the captains all it seems rather silly. Still it's all much better for everyone if matches aren't routinely decided on the day. Not so good for chess or the competition, but it leaves people something to argue/complain about. Which is what everyone wants, isn't it? Otherwise everyone will have to go back to talking about football refereeing decisions.

[Alex Holowczak]

So there is a rule about informing the ECF of ungraded players before they play, but I would have suspected this rule is in place for players new to the ECF grading system, considering Jim Summer was graded in the high 190s in 2011 then this should be enough for him to be cleared for the open team

No, there isn't a rule about informing the ECF of ungraded players before they play.

There is a rule about clearing ungraded players with the Controller. You are, in effect, asking permission for the ungraded player to play.

Now that we have a 10-point rule in place, it is not a case of OKing a player for a section. It's about estimating his grade, which may or may not make him eligible for a particular section; but will also provide an estimate for the purposes of the 10-point rule.

The rule is also prescriptive that such clearance must be made 7 days before the match. I've no idea why it's 7 days, but it's always said that. Presumably it gives time for opposing captains to question a clearance.

Alex, do you actually check the history on the grading database?

I check the August list to see whether someone is ungraded, which is what I'm supposed to do according to the rules. Sumner was ungraded in that grading list.