2016 draw

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
Alan Walton
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Location: Oldham

Re: 2016 draw

Postby Alan Walton » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:36 am

Regarding GMan participation; when Dale James was captain around 2004-2006, we easily won a couple of titles getting teams out with average grades around 200. Unfortunately after he decided to hang up his boots getting the 3Cs players out was difficult (6/7 players 190+) due to our focus turning to 4NCL, the general view at 3Cs is that travelling for 3/4 matches down to the Midlands for one game wasn't worth the time and effort (the M6 is notoriously difficult journey, especially as it takes us nearly an hour just to get to it).

The 3Cs view is that we are a Northern county and should be playing in the NCCU, and until this happens I cannot see the vast majority of our players playing until this changes, hopefully my friends in Yorkshire keep pushing for this to happen; at least the NCCU have two teams trying to qualify for the "Open" section

Also, the adjournment comments (which shouldn't be in this post) are a bit strange; you say it is a "shoot-out" playing blitz time controls, but personally I prefer that than playing against Rybka or Houdini in adjournment play which is bound to happen nowadays

If you disagree with the views of the MCF (AGM and Council) you should become the Stockport representative and try and persuade your club that your views are the way to go, then turn up to meetings and propose/air the views, and if other clubs agree then that is the direction of travel the county will take; at the moment the vast majority are polar oppposite

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby Andrew Zigmond » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:37 am

David Pardoe wrote:And Mick.. you mentioned Stockport chess club. They do a very considerable amount of good work for local chess, in both Manchester & Stockport.

Maybe they just don`t want to listen to your `red herrings`, discredit stories, dubious utterances, brow beating....and brain washing sessions ??



This may just be the most disgusting thing I've ever read on this forum. I can't claim to know Mick well (or the politics of the MCF) but he has always struck me as somebody of integrity. He certainly has never come across to me as a person deserving of such an unpleasant personal attack, particular from one of this forum's most notorious non volunteers.
County Championships Controller
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby Roger de Coverly » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:58 am

Alan Walton wrote: the general view at 3Cs is that travelling for 3/4 matches down to the Midlands for one game wasn't worth the time and effort


Is that also a view shared by other potential Manchester players, that particularly with the establishment of 4NCL North, that represents a more attractive option for weekend play than county chess?

Alan Walton
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Location: Oldham

Re: 2016 draw

Postby Alan Walton » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:40 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Alan Walton wrote: the general view at 3Cs is that travelling for 3/4 matches down to the Midlands for one game wasn't worth the time and effort


Is that also a view shared by other potential Manchester players, that particularly with the establishment of 4NCL North, that represents a more attractive option for weekend play than county chess?


Personally I wouldn't know, though Manchester are still quite new the 4NCL and there is alot of Lancashire players in the squad, I don't think it has a major impact to the GMan

Losing over 50% of your team, and the majority are at the top end, the3Cs lack of participation is the predominant factor; due mainly to 4NCL but also travelling, especially since 3Cs being based in NE Manchester travelling to the West Midlands is especially problematic; from Oldham travelling to Leeds/Sheffield/Bradford can take only 45mins, whereas Stafford/Stoke is normally double that, and thereafter the issue of traffic is more pronounced

David Pardoe
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby David Pardoe » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:18 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
David Pardoe wrote:And Mick.. you mentioned Stockport chess club. They do a very considerable amount of good work for local chess, in both Manchester & Stockport.

Maybe they just don`t want to listen to your `red herrings`, discredit stories, dubious utterances, brow beating....and brain washing sessions ??



This may just be the most disgusting thing I've ever read on this forum. I can't claim to know Mick well (or the politics of the MCF) but he has always struck me as somebody of integrity. He certainly has never come across to me as a person deserving of such an unpleasant personal attack, particular from one of this forum's most notorious non volunteers.




You`re quite good at dishing out the insults yourself, telling people here that I am the forums most notorious non volunteer, when I have spent a lifetime volunteering..
Has it crossed your mind that I might just be trying to encourage new comers to volunteer, and offering the benefit of my chess volunteering experience
BRING BACK THE BCF

Andrew Zigmond
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Location: Harrogate

Re: 2016 draw

Postby Andrew Zigmond » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:44 pm

David Pardoe wrote:

You`re quite good at dishing out the insults yourself, telling people here that I am the forums most notorious non volunteer, when I have spent a lifetime volunteering..
Has it crossed your mind that I might just be trying to encourage new comers to volunteer, and offering the benefit of my chess volunteering experience


I don't doubt that you have done much of value in the past but unfortunately that's probably true of most contributors here. As for encouraging newcomers to volunteer I would say that your comments about Mick (who could easily do other things with his time) could cost you a volunteer and not exactly encourage new volunteers to come forward.
County Championships Controller
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Alan Walton
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Location: Oldham

Re: 2016 draw

Postby Alan Walton » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:57 pm

Lets all calm down here; everybody involved with chess in the UK are volunteers, so we don't need I volunteer more than others comments

The arguement here is that Mick is voted in as the voice of Manchester Chess by the AGM, all his comments and views are voted by the clubs of Manchester, therefore these are the official views of Manchester chess scene; if individuals differ from this it is up to them to discuss with their club and put these across in a diplomatic manner through the AGM or Council.

So David until you are in an official capacity with the MCF you views are totally personal, and by the looks of it are contradictory to the views of all the clubs in the Manchester league who vote at the AGM, note I believe that Heywood (and others) don't participate at AGMs but that is their choice

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby Andrew Zigmond » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:00 pm

Alan Walton wrote:Lets all calm down here; everybody involved with chess in the UK are volunteers, so we don't need I volunteer more than others comments


That's fair enough. I just thought the personal attack on Mick was quite uncalled for, that's all.
County Championships Controller
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

MartinCarpenter
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Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: 2016 draw

Postby MartinCarpenter » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:00 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Alan Walton wrote: the general view at 3Cs is that travelling for 3/4 matches down to the Midlands for one game wasn't worth the time and effort


Is that also a view shared by other potential Manchester players, that particularly with the establishment of 4NCL North, that represents a more attractive option for weekend play than county chess?


Like Alan said, not from the Manticores. In fact the Manticores have had something of the same problem the GM open team has - difficulty in getting the potential strong players who aren't from 3C's to play on anything like a regular basis.

The travel definitely isn't great from GM. I played one or two grade limited matches for Manchester when I first moved here, then promptly switched to Yorkshire on account of it. Not that I could see myself playing for other than Yorkshire now really.

John Reyes
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Location: Manchester

Re: 2016 draw

Postby John Reyes » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:53 pm

Alan Walton wrote:Lets all calm down here; everybody involved with chess in the UK are volunteers, so we don't need I volunteer more than others comments

The arguement here is that Mick is voted in as the voice of Manchester Chess by the AGM, all his comments and views are voted by the clubs of Manchester, therefore these are the official views of Manchester chess scene; if individuals differ from this it is up to them to discuss with their club and put these across in a diplomatic manner through the AGM or Council.

So David until you are in an official capacity with the MCF you views are totally personal, and by the looks of it are contradictory to the views of all the clubs in the Manchester league who vote at the AGM, note I believe that Heywood (and others) don't participate at AGMs but that is their choice



here here!!!

as Urmston has just had there AGM, they have raised a few points to bring to the MCF and Lancashire AGM, so hope that people on both sides get behind this as there some people in Urmston that wanted to play county chess for lancashire but there some that wanted to play for Greater Manchester!!
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

David Pardoe
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby David Pardoe » Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:46 pm

John Reyes wrote:
Alan Walton wrote:Lets all calm down here; everybody involved with chess in the UK are volunteers, so we don't need I volunteer more than others comments

The arguement here is that Mick is voted in as the voice of Manchester Chess by the AGM, all his comments and views are voted by the clubs of Manchester, therefore these are the official views of Manchester chess scene; if individuals differ from this it is up to them to discuss with their club and put these across in a diplomatic manner through the AGM or Council.

So David until you are in an official capacity with the MCF you views are totally personal, and by the looks of it are contradictory to the views of all the clubs in the Manchester league who vote at the AGM, note I believe that Heywood (and others) don't participate at AGMs but that is their choice



here here!!!

as Urmston has just had there AGM, they have raised a few points to bring to the MCF and Lancashire AGM, so hope that people on both sides get behind this as there some people in Urmston that wanted to play county chess for lancashire but there some that wanted to play for Greater Manchester!!


Good to see Urmston getting involved...after 40 years..

Alan,
I understand your points...and I think that one issue is that we`re all talking at cross purposes to some extent..
You need to go back through this thread and read from where Mike Truran was talking about the County Competitions being in dire straights, particularly the `top` Open, Minor Counties, and U180 sections, due to lack of support. And he asked `what might be done..`..
He also said I should step forward and volunteer to help sort things out..

So, I`ve put forward my ideas...

Then, in steps Andrew and others, saying `how dare I interfere with my long winded posts....telling everyone what to do....??
Things have developed from there ...to the point where Andrew seems to think that only current `ECF big wigs` and other `important officianadoes`, should be allowed to comment on these forums.
And you endorsing this by saying things like `I should get my clubs` backing and re-join the MCF Council` if I want to have my views listened to...??

This forum is a public forum where anyone and everyone is entitled to express there views.
Its not for ECF or other Officianadoes to strut there stuff, lording it over the rest of us.. saying that `they know best` and everyone else should `shut up and listen`.?
Is it any wonder, with this brow beating arrogance, that many ordinary players steer well clear, and refuse to join in the discussions..
Incidentally, I`ve done my stint on the MCF Council... made my contributions.. reported back to my club, etc.. And dealt first hand with some very dubious politics..
And I`ve seen the apathy.... such is the mad society our politicians have created.
No, I`m not advocating BREXIT... that would be a disaster, which might lead to the break up of the entire EU project, and maybe even the UK itself.
It too, desperately needs REFORM.... If that doesnt work, say in 5 – 10 years time. then maybe we arrange a controlled break up.

Back to the main point..
I`m afraid you are guilty, like many others, of flying flags of convenience.
On the one hand you issue the threat that 3Cs will not get involved with county chess, unless we re-join the NCCU..
But you also say that Dale (from 3Cs), ran the Gman county team about 10 years ago, when 3Cs were very active in the MCCU Counties competitions.
Then you said that 3Cs quit and decided to focus instead on 4NCL competitions.
So it doesn't really sound like 3Cs would come back, even if we did re-join the NCCU... and actively support the MCF teams?
But the other telling argument you put is about travel.. Its far easier for North Manchester clubs and 3Cs to make very short trips to Heywood and Halifax to play Lancs and Yorks, than to travel down the M6, to play MCCU teams.
I can see that point.. but its just not what these County events are about...in my view.

I`ve said that the NCCU has become one vast chess counties exclusion zone.. Everyone side-lined as the `big two` slog it out.
That's not what these county events are supposed to be about.

I support the MCCU because they run fully inclusive county events on all levels... and many of there counties qualify for the National Finals stages. There officials have rolled up there sleeves and ensured these excellent `big team` events are given a good airing, producing loads of excellent 16 board matches.... and more importantly, some good camaraderie and valuable match play experience for many players, at all levels.

Its not been easy by any means..but top marks to these guys for meeting all the challenges.
One other point is, that the MCCU have made great strides to try to improve the travel issues in these events, once I`d joined the MCCU AGMs and started campaigning for change.
Yes, that was not easy, but now our county venues and locations are much better than back in 2004 – 6. But travel and venues are issues that all counties across the country face. Its not easy... and certainly if you want 4* venues, you probably need to pay 4* prices... and we all know that many players don't want to spend money.
However, our main venue at Newcastle-U-Lyme is one of the best around, I believe.

But the other problem with your idea of joining the NCCU, .....just so we (i.e., some North Manchester clubs), can have some easy trips across the Yorks border to play county chess.??

What happens when we qualify for the National stages...and find ourselves having to travel further afield.. to Leicester, South Birmingham, and Worcester.
Will all those players who wont travel further than the Cheshire borders to play chess, suddenly just jump ship... This is a nightmare for county captains and is exactly what happened one year.. and Manchester suffered the ludicrous humiliation of having reached the Finals Stages, then having to default a match at late notice. What a shambles..?
I as now speaking as a former MCF county captain, who has put in hours of effort to try to raise teams, only to have this happen.
This is why I`m asking Manchester to think very carefully about all this.


Now to some other big issues..
Yes, your right that the MCF were mandated to try for entry to the NCCU..
And Micks efforts on this have been very good indeed.
But we really do need a deal that is in the best interests oi those who will actually be playing, not a bunch of apathetic armchair spectators, who really couldn`t care less what is agreed.
I am particularly keen to see that we do not accept a deal that leaves us still being treated as second class citizens, with Lancs allowed to crawl all over our county, poaching players and even clubs, as the opportunity comes.. We`ve seen this before...
Merseyside are part of the NCCU with no strings attached by Lancs, yet they still don't want any part of the NCCU county competitions..

So, my message to the MCF is to think carefully..very carefully, about what is on offer, and what the best choices might be.
There are no perfect answers, because different people want different things...
If we are to re-join the NCCU, we need a deal that is at least on a par with that offered to Merseyside.
It might be that we could consider joining BOTH the MCCU and the NCCU, and maybe continue our county U160 team in the MCCU events, and try out our Open team in the NCCU events, and see how things pan out for a few years.
BRING BACK THE BCF

Alan Walton
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Location: Oldham

Re: 2016 draw

Postby Alan Walton » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:20 pm

David Pardoe wrote:So it doesn't really sound like 3Cs would come back, even if we did re-join the NCCU... and actively support the MCF teams?


Sorry David, but I think I know a little more than yourself considering I actually speak with my fellow club mates; where is your opinion coming from

David Pardoe wrote:I`ve said that the NCCU has become one vast chess counties exclusion zone.. Everyone side-lined as the `big two` slog it out.
That's not what these county events are supposed to be about.


That very inclusive Open section in the MCCU containing only one team at present, Staffordshire

David Pardoe wrote:What happens when we qualify for the National stages...and find ourselves having to travel further afield.. to Leicester, South Birmingham, and Worcester.


Well that is the expectation you expect from the players a couple of times a year, I admit this is an area where the ECF may want to think about playing over a weekend like the 4NCL

David Pardoe wrote:Yes, your right that the MCF were mandated to try for entry to the NCCU..


MCF "are" mandated to try for entry to the NCCU

David Pardoe wrote:But we really do need a deal that is in the best interests oi those who will actually be playing, not a bunch of apathetic armchair spectators, who really couldn`t care less what is agreed.
I am particularly keen to see that we do not accept a deal that leaves us still being treated as second class citizens, with Lancs allowed to crawl all over our county, poaching players and even clubs, as the opportunity comes.. We`ve seen this before...
Merseyside are part of the NCCU with no strings attached by Lancs, yet they still don't want any part of the NCCU county competitions..


Did you read Mick's response; we rejected all Lancashire demands, generally any player affiliated with a club in the MCF is eligible, and/or also resides within the Greater Manchester area; I don't think any of the efforts are done on a whim and have been discussed fully

Andrew Zigmond
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Location: Harrogate

Re: 2016 draw

Postby Andrew Zigmond » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:34 pm

David Pardoe wrote:
Then, in steps Andrew and others, saying `how dare I interfere with my long winded posts....telling everyone what to do....??
Things have developed from there ...to the point where Andrew seems to think that only current `ECF big wigs` and other `important officianadoes`, should be allowed to comment on these forums.
And you endorsing this by saying things like `I should get my clubs` backing and re-join the MCF Council` if I want to have my views listened to...??

This forum is a public forum where anyone and everyone is entitled to express there views.
Its not for ECF or other Officianadoes to strut there stuff, lording it over the rest of us.. saying that `they know best` and everyone else should `shut up and listen`.?
Is it any wonder, with this brow beating arrogance, that many ordinary players steer well clear, and refuse to join in the discussions..


With respect David, I didn't say that. The reason I jumped down your throat yesterday was your personal attack on Mick Norris which you seem to have backed down from slightly.

Of course you (and anyone else) are free to express their views and those of us with an ECF standing would be fools if we didn't pay attention to what was being said. The County Championships belongs to the players and county unions who compete. Your personal passion for the county championships is not in doubt.

At the same time, and in the spirit of honesty, I find your posts very generalised and your ideas vague. You are free to suggest but at the end of the day somebody needs to bring these proposals to the relevant meeting (some of your suggestions are ECF matters, some are MCF/ MCCU related and some are NCCU matters) and not only get them passed but work out the fine details of how it is going to work. And if a far reaching proposal was passed, the person responsible promptly resigned because they didn't have the time or ability to do the work necessary and nobody else was willing to step into the breach the person making the proposal would be no further on than when they started.
County Championships Controller
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Mick Norris
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby Mick Norris » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:45 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
David Pardoe wrote:And Mick.. you mentioned Stockport chess club. They do a very considerable amount of good work for local chess, in both Manchester & Stockport.

Maybe they just don`t want to listen to your `red herrings`, discredit stories, dubious utterances, brow beating....and brain washing sessions ??



This may just be the most disgusting thing I've ever read on this forum. I can't claim to know Mick well (or the politics of the MCF) but he has always struck me as somebody of integrity. He certainly has never come across to me as a person deserving of such an unpleasant personal attack, particular from one of this forum's most notorious non volunteers.


Thank you for those kind words Andrew

I haven't been on here for a few days, but I have been passed an email Dave P sent "in confidence" (which is ironic given how many times he has been sent things in confidence and then passed them on) in which he tells similar lies about me

I don't see the point in debating anything, really, given all I do is quote facts and get rubbish like this back

For the record, at Bury I have been team captain, secretary, chairman, tournament controller and am now currently MCF rep as well as helping organise the Bury Rapidplays including raising sponsorship, as well as the Bury trips to Granada & Isle of Man

For the MCF I am currently and have been for years a Council member giving up many evenings in the process, U175 county team captain, congress director, President for 4 years (my wife died a few weeks into my term of office, when my daughter was 5), MCCU rep, attended Saturday meetings of the MCCU, NCCU and ECF, organised the Manchester Rapidplays

The MCCU minutes will show how many meetings I attended as Greater Manchester's rep, more than Dave P did in his time I guess, but the important thing isn't how many meetings, it is what you manage to achieve :roll:
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Mick Norris
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Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Harwood, Greater Manchester
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby Mick Norris » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:50 pm

Alan Walton wrote:
David Pardoe wrote:But we really do need a deal that is in the best interests oi those who will actually be playing, not a bunch of apathetic armchair spectators, who really couldn`t care less what is agreed.
I am particularly keen to see that we do not accept a deal that leaves us still being treated as second class citizens, with Lancs allowed to crawl all over our county, poaching players and even clubs, as the opportunity comes.. We`ve seen this before...
Merseyside are part of the NCCU with no strings attached by Lancs, yet they still don't want any part of the NCCU county competitions..


Did you read Mick's response


Of course not :lol:
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk


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