2016 draw

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
Mike Truran
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby Mike Truran » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:57 pm

In David's defence, Mick's post probably wasn't sufficiently prolix and didn't have enough ellipses in it to be worthy of his attention. :lol:

David Pardoe
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby David Pardoe » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:51 pm

Not a problem Mike.. and yes, I have read the messages you refer to.
And, putting aside the misstatements, selective half truths and other spurious comment put out by the usual suspects recently..

Unfortunately, I suspect my concerns are being concealed from the MCF membership, by certain parties who are hell bent on playing out there personal agendas, it appears. Certainly, it does not appear that they have been flagged up for discussion.

I`ve tried to spell these out in my latest messages....

I`ve made the point that I think that the MCCU offers the best overall county chess package for Manchester. Travel is an issue for every county in the land...more so for some.
I`ve tried to highlight the major issues with the NCCU, and its chess exclusion zone, which effectively has left most of its counties side-lined, playing no county matches of any sort..
I`ve tried to indicate that Manchester could decide to join the NCCU, only if it can get good terms that are on a par to those offered to Merseyside. Even with those, Merseyside has remained on the side-lines... playing no county chess for years. Presumably they too want to stay well clear of the politics..
I`ve tried to indicate that the MCCU venues are now much more attractive than they were in past years. Our Newcastle-U-Lyme venue is excellent, and so is our venue at Holmes Chapel.
Manchester could play home matches, if it was so agreed.
I`ve tried to warn against joining the NCCU for purely convenience reasons, i.e., because its so easy to travel to the Yorks/Lancs borders for North Manchester clubs.
And the Lancs/Yorks matches are only 12 board events anyway...
The counties competitions are about much more than this.... and many of our clubs may not have considered this, nor be particularly interested anyway.

But if players are not prepared to travel beyond the Cheshire borders, we will end up defaulting in the National Finals stages, when we would be faced with longer trips to Birmingham, Leicester, or perhaps Worcester.
As a county captain I suffered exactly that experience, when we had to default an attractive National stage Quarter Final match, at late notice. What a waste of time, Money, and effort...and very demoralising for the team, and those players who had set aside there Saturday and were looking forward to playing the match.
Cyril Johnson had to give the food away, and Manchester picked up the tab for this and the venue hire... although our opponents on that day did generously offer to pay half the venue hire.

Nobody is saying we should not apply to join the NCCU, but if we do, then let it at least be on reasonable terms, and on a basis that is attractive and does not sell Manchester short.
I have sent an email out to this effect, so we`ll see what happens..

Nobody is denying that GMan MCF Council/AGM has rejected some absolutely farcical proposals that have been put by Lancs..
It would have been astonishing if any other decision had been made by the MCF.

We are actually in the fortunate position of having the U160 team playing in the MCCU events, which have been some of the best county competition in the country. These Qualifying competitions have been stronger than the National Finals stages on some occasions.
It was only this year that they played 2 matches, due to the late withdrawal of Staffs. Most other years, we can look forward to some absolutely cracking 16 board matches, against 3, 4 or 5 quite competitive teams.. contrary to the impression that Mick is trying to portray.
As for the the Open section, Those who are aware will know that (in the MCCU), these have been merged into the Minor counties section in recent years, to form a 4 or 5 team qualifier...which has worked ok..
We also have the added benefit of being able to play Lancs or Yorks, in the National Finals stages, should we qualify and be paired together, without any need to go joining the NCCU, with all the hassle that has entailed for the past 40 years. But its not just the joining of the NCCU that is the issue, its the fact that Lancs have exerted a grip of death over our county this past 40 odd years.
I don't see any problems with the GMan Open team playing `friendly matches` with Yorks, Staffs, or others if that's what they`d prefer..

So, the MCF has some real choices to consider..
If they could get an acceptable deal with Lancs and the NCCU..

Do they bow to certain North Manchester clubs wishes and join the NCCU...
Do they join both the MCCU and NCCU.. and continue playing county U160 matches in the MCCU over a full 16 boards.
Or do they stick with the MCCU, and continue to enjoy some good benefits of playing in a well run MCCU.
Meantime, if the NCCU could start to show signs of revival and more of there counties joining the counties competitions, that might be positive.
I`ve mentioned how this might be achieved and others no doubt have there ideas.
And no, I don't propose to join the MCCU, NCCU, MCF, or other bodies to try to assist with that....nor setting out every last detail of any such agreed process. The various local expertise are quite capable of sorting these things, I`m quite sure, if the grip of apathy (that Neil Graham has referred to..), can be lifted.
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Mike Truran
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby Mike Truran » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:16 pm

David

What you say may, or may not, be true. Although to be honest, given the length of your posts I do rather lose concentration and focus after reading a few lines. I'm not as young as I was. :oops:

But the fact remains that: (a) lecturing other people on what should be done rather than getting off your bottom and doing something about it yourself; (b) telling us how much you used to do as an organiser/volunteer in the past; (c) tossing in all manner of unconnected points into the same post, doesn't really get us much further.

And (small point though it is) your continuing, and entirely unnecessary, use of ellipsis continues to be a major distraction to whatever message it is that you're seeking to convey.

Mike

Mick Norris
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby Mick Norris » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:27 am

As the great Manchester poet said:

"In my life, why do I give valuable time to people who don't care if I live or die?"

"How can they look into my eyes and still they don't believe me? How can they hear me say those words and still they don't believe me? And, if they don't believe me now, will they ever believe me?"

Of course, he was a bit amateur hour as far as it came to disputes "I had a really bad dream, it lasted 20 years, 7 months, and 27 days", ours has lasted over 40 years now :lol:
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby Kevin Thurlow » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:12 pm

"But if players are not prepared to travel beyond the Cheshire borders, we will end up defaulting in the National Finals stages, when we would be faced with longer trips to Birmingham, Leicester, or perhaps Worcester."

where I understand they still paint themselves blue.

Mick Norris
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby Mick Norris » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:42 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:"But if players are not prepared to travel beyond the Cheshire borders, we will end up defaulting in the National Finals stages, when we would be faced with longer trips to Birmingham, Leicester, or perhaps Worcester."

where I understand they still paint themselves blue.
:?:

I took the U175 team down to Worcester to play devon a few years back, the U150 played Hants at Edgbaston, the U160 final in Leicester was preceded by trips to Water Orton, Heywood :lol: and somewhere near Hinckley Island - depends on the captain I think (being clear, well organised, not getting people's names wrong or upsetting them in other ways)
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby Matt Mackenzie » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:54 pm

Mick Norris wrote:As the great Manchester poet said:

"In my life, why do I give valuable time to people who don't care if I live or die?"

"How can they look into my eyes and still they don't believe me? How can they hear me say those words and still they don't believe me? And, if they don't believe me now, will they ever believe me?"

Of course, he was a bit amateur hour as far as it came to disputes "I had a really bad dream, it lasted 20 years, 7 months, and 27 days", ours has lasted over 40 years now :lol:


Its still going, even after the passing of you know who?
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

MartinCarpenter
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby MartinCarpenter » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:06 pm

Very sadly, yes :( Still some of the same Lancashire leadership/organisation in place.

Not trivial to motivate people to remove them either as, this apart!, they seem to broadly do a good job.

Mick Norris
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby Mick Norris » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:28 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:As the great Manchester poet said:

"In my life, why do I give valuable time to people who don't care if I live or die?"

"How can they look into my eyes and still they don't believe me? How can they hear me say those words and still they don't believe me? And, if they don't believe me now, will they ever believe me?"

Of course, he was a bit amateur hour as far as it came to disputes "I had a really bad dream, it lasted 20 years, 7 months, and 27 days", ours has lasted over 40 years now :lol:


Its still going, even after the passing of you know who?


Of course, though Bill wasn't around at the time, he seems more determined than most - I had an illuminating conversation with 1 of my fellow Manticores at the 1st 4NCL weekend about what actually happened (as he was in the meetings, whereas everyone else I talked to wasn't actually there in 1974/5 :roll: )
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

David Pardoe
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby David Pardoe » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:59 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:"But if players are not prepared to travel beyond the Cheshire borders, we will end up defaulting in the National Finals stages, when we would be faced with longer trips to Birmingham, Leicester, or perhaps Worcester."

where I understand they still paint themselves blue.



The match referred to here (regarding default), was actually an Open team match. Look at the full text of the original message for context..

I should add that at times, over the past 15 years, as well as captaining the GMan U150/U160 teams, I also took on the Open team captaincy. even though my grade was probably seen as too low for an Open team player. I was prepared to act as non playing captain, if it meant our Open team could continue in county events.
We had reasonable Open team support at the time but lacked a recognised Open team captain. Yes, some additional higher graded players would have been welcome from our clubs.

After Dale James had stepped down from running the Open team in 2006, and other 3Cs senior players pulled out to focus on 4NCL, Richard Beach took over, but eventually gave up due to the lack of senior player support.
I stepped in, even though I had enough on my plate running the U150/U160 teams.. In the 15 years or so of my involvement, our U150/U160 teams have not defaulted a single match in MCCU competitions, I dont believe.

The default referred to was mainly due to certain players being unenthusiastic about travelling to Leicester to play..
I tried getting the match moved to Birmingham, but no agreement could be reached... so we were forced to default.

Manchester has failed to find a regular Open team county captain for the past several years..

I stepped in to captain the Open team again, about 15 months ago, after another South Manchester captain stood down at very short notice, leaving us with another potential Open team match default. I was thanked by the MCF for doing so... and was greatly assisted by local clubs and players.
We had such a struggle raising a team, that I actually thought we might have been 2 or 3 boards light.. One of our top boards had refused to play, explicitly stating that he did not want to travel to the far side of Stoke to play... and we rebuilt the team from scratch to play that match...
Fortunately we found a late replacement, on the way to the match, because my passenger managed to contact one of our other top boards, and he agreed to play.
We ended up playing an extremely close match, which we narrowly lost.
Since then Manchester has not managed to find a replacement to captain the Open team..
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Alan Walton
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby Alan Walton » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:40 am

David Pardoe wrote:After Dale James had stepped down from running the Open team in 2006, and other 3Cs senior players pulled out to focus on 4NCL, Richard Beach took over, but eventually gave up due to the lack of senior player support.
I stepped in, even though I had enough on my plate running the U150/U160 teams.. In the 15 years or so of my involvement, our U150/U160 teams have not defaulted a single match in MCCU competitions, I dont believe.


Again David your really do talk some ****

Dale took over from Richard Beech; Dale did 3 years and got to 3 finals and won 2 of them (quite convincingly); Dale decided to step down then our President Bert Thomas took the captaincy over and we qualified for the national stages; then Bert went on holiday for a couple of months to America and I myself organized the team against Yorkshire; I was lucky to persuade the 3Cs players to turn out but unfortunately we were too weak on the bottom board (which you yourself played and lost). So please don't try and take credit for this as you are totally incorrect and proves you are a total ****** .......... good with ellipses

Here is the link to the match I organised when Bert was on holiday

http://www.mccu.org.uk/cm05-06/national ... _may06.htm

David Pardoe
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby David Pardoe » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:51 am

Alan,
Again, you really do talk some *******

You have clearly missed the point of my post... AGAIN.

And you cant even report accurately on the one county Open team match you quoted from ..
You said that I`d played bottom board in that match, which is clearly not true... and said we had a weak bottom board..which we had lost. We had actually lost on a number of boards. What an insult to the guy who had given up his day, and actually volunteered to help Gman out by offering to play, which is more than some were prepared to do, even though that match was quite local, and against Yorks... an attractive fixture.
Yes, its true that Richard Beach proceeded Dale James... and also true that various members have assisted with GMans teams over the past 16 years..

Welcome to BRITEXITA.. and another media circus. Democracy at work... or media control freaks running the show?
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Alan Walton
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby Alan Walton » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:16 am

Again David you twist the argument

I was pointing out that you were factually incorrect about what happened with the county first team during the 2000s

Also, I was saying we were too weak on the bottoms boards to be competitive, maybe could have worded the comment clearer; but I think by putting the link on the message clearly shows you were on Board 15

David Pardoe
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby David Pardoe » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:31 am

Alan,
I repeat...

You have clearly missed the point of my original post... and not for the first time.

You say that I got it wrong regarding the 2000`s. You couldnt even get it right on one match... and a match that you captained.
You said that we were weak on bottom boards, and I had lost.... on bottom board..?
We actually lost on no fewer than ten boards... maybe we were weak on more than just bottom boards.
And you keep saying how wonderful it is for us to play teams like Yorks ...and you cant wait to get back to the NCCU, because it might give you some nice easy trips to Yorks..?
Most other counties in the NCCU steer well clear of there county chess events, not least, because they dont relish the prospect of getting smashed up by the giant Yorks army.
The NCCU is a counties chess exclusion zone... The MCCU, on the other hand, runs well supported county events, where no fewer than 8 of there counties qualified for the National Finals stages last year

And you accuse me of twisting the facts, when almost every post you write that targets me is slanted, and misrepresentative in some way.

You need to read my original post again, because you haven't grasped the point I was making.
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Neil Graham
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Re: 2016 draw

Postby Neil Graham » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:06 pm

May I respectfully suggest that the (mostly) three-way conversation about the situation in Manchester be carried out on a separate thread? It has nothing to do with the 2016 draw/results.

In respect of Manchester competing in any Union competition whether NCCU or MCCU - this will not happen until you have people in place that are both able and capable of running county teams at whatever level. What happened in 1975 or indeed any year since or who held what post when is immaterial if you cannot find anyone to take responsibility in 2016/2017.


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