Rule changes

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Rule changes

Postby Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:20 am

The Open County competition should be hard to win. It should genuinely be the best players in the country trying to beat each other, but divided along county lines. The fact that grandmasters are mostly absent (I forget how that varied historically) does make it more the "best of the amateurs", but there are genuinely very strong county teams with a long history.

What has varied over time is the size of the teams. Maybe that could be looked at again? How long has it been 16 players and what was it before (I think it was 20 players at one stage)? Some of the stages are now just 12 players. You can reduce it too much, but maybe counties that struggle to be competitive over 16 boards may do better over 12 boards? Is this a slippery slope, though? Should the line be drawn at 16 and no further?

LawrenceCooper
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Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:13 am

Re: Rule changes

Postby LawrenceCooper » Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:24 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:The Open County competition should be hard to win. It should genuinely be the best players in the country trying to beat each other, but divided along county lines. The fact that grandmasters are mostly absent (I forget how that varied historically) does make it more the "best of the amateurs", but there are genuinely very strong county teams with a long history.

What has varied over time is the size of the teams. Maybe that could be looked at again? How long has it been 16 players and what was it before (I think it was 20 players at one stage)? Some of the stages are now just 12 players. You can reduce it too much, but maybe counties that struggle to be competitive over 16 boards may do better over 12 boards? Is this a slippery slope, though? Should the line be drawn at 16 and no further?


My last three games in the national stages were all against GMs. :shock:

Mick Norris
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Location: Harwood, Greater Manchester
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Re: Rule changes

Postby Mick Norris » Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:35 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:The Open County competition should be hard to win. It should genuinely be the best players in the country trying to beat each other, but divided along county lines. The fact that grandmasters are mostly absent (I forget how that varied historically) does make it more the "best of the amateurs", but there are genuinely very strong county teams with a long history.

What has varied over time is the size of the teams. Maybe that could be looked at again? How long has it been 16 players and what was it before (I think it was 20 players at one stage)? Some of the stages are now just 12 players. You can reduce it too much, but maybe counties that struggle to be competitive over 16 boards may do better over 12 boards? Is this a slippery slope, though? Should the line be drawn at 16 and no further?


I'm not sure if the size of teams favours the bigger counties (more players to choose from) or not - you are more likely to get 12 very strong players than 16, but the smaller the team size, the bigger the chance of an upset?

You do want to be careful not to reduce the team size down to something that loses county chess its USP e.g. it needs to be a bigger team than, say, a London League match

We discussed reducing MCCU stage teams from 16 to 12 a few years ago, with the most vociferous opposition coming from smaller counties that wanted to spread the venue cost over 16 rather than 12 players
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

MartinCarpenter
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Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Rule changes

Postby MartinCarpenter » Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:19 pm

Look at the Yorkshire team from the last two Open finals. 3 IM's, one very strong player then the rest of the team are more or less interchangeable ~200 grades. It seems to be mostly pretty similar for the SCCU counties.

It is definitely very much easier to sensibly compete with that sort of team over 12 boards than 16. It'd be the same for the U180's.

The warnings about reducing the character are very true of course! Maybe it is just doomed to drift away over time :(

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Rule changes

Postby MartinCarpenter » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:30 pm

Thought I might as well try to confirm that intuitive feeling, and I'm not sure if 12 boards would help much with levelling the playing field in the open. Checked to see if it would bring a few of the counties close to having viable teams into at least 'sane hope for an upset win' territory.

Things do get closer, but the grading gap seems to be ~15pts/board and that is an awful lot to overcome over 12 boards.

8 boards does it (210 maximum average vs people hitting ~200), but that's a truly terrible idea!

Richard Bates
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Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:27 pm

Re: Rule changes

Postby Richard Bates » Sat May 21, 2016 8:48 am

I assume it's written down in black and white somewhere, but do the new arrangements re: FIDE rating apply to this year's competition or are they to be introduced from next season?

Just want to know if i'm on the hook for further rating loss today...

Roger de Coverly
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Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Rule changes

Postby Roger de Coverly » Sat May 21, 2016 9:23 am

Richard Bates wrote:I assume it's written down in black and white somewhere,


The Counties Championship has not been pre-registered with FIDE.

https://ratings.fide.com/tournament_lis ... ountry=ENG

The original proposal is here.

http://www.englishchess.org.uk/wp-conte ... posals.pdf

The part of the proposal to rate the Minor Counties was removed, but the date (2016-17) presumably wasn't.

Neil Graham
Posts: 921
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:36 pm

Re: Rule changes

Postby Neil Graham » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:45 pm

The new rules for 2016/17 have now been published here:-

http://www.englishchess.org.uk/competitions-plp/county-championships-2/

Nick Grey
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:16 am

Re: Rule changes

Postby Nick Grey » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:15 pm

Neil - thanks but I cannot see the relevant changes in respect of a dispute at the semi-final stage last year, other than one advisory note.

Specifically a captain making a ruling on his own game & not taking advice on that from our captain and one of his own players. A faulty clock.
Then not following the rules for that clock to be examined.

Nor in terms of the subsequent matters, & not being allowed to consult the current match position by the same player.

I am going to raise with my county again particularly as I am just about feeling well enough to play another game of over the board chess.


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