County duel brand

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
Alex Holowczak
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Re: County duel brand

Postby Alex Holowczak » Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:02 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:Alex, do you regard it as acceptable that the National Counties Championship is so structured that two particular counties are guaranteed a place in the National Stages every year while other counties have to compete for a place?


Having been suitably boxed into a corner... :wink:

Let me answer the question in a rather roundabout way. If I were running an English County Championship, starting tomorrow, then this would probably be the format.

Everyone would send an entry form and the money to the ECF, and the ECF would then look at however many counties have entered a section, and put them in regional groups of, say, 4-6 county teams. But you'd aim for 2 or 4 (or maybe even 8 ) groups.

At the end of the regional groups, the winners (or maybe top 2) would qualify for the Knockout stage, which would proceed as normal.

So you wouldn't have the Union stage at all, which I think would have advantages:
(1) The Greater Manchester joining the NCCU issue would be something we can move on from
(2) You are guaranteed a reasonable number of group matches, so (say) Lancashire and Yorkshire might end up in a group with counties like Greater Manchester, Derbyshire or Lincolnshire. And this would retain the current situation where you have relatively minimal travelling, too.

I think that format would be superior to the existing format, but the Union turkeys aren't going to vote for Christmas.

As long as we have a Union structure, then I don't see the problem can be solved.

Michael Farthing
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Re: County duel brand

Postby Michael Farthing » Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:09 pm

A very elegant and well-appointed corner, if I might say.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: County duel brand

Postby MartinCarpenter » Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:25 pm

Yes definitely seems a very sane sort of idea(s) to me :)

One thing about Yorkshire/Manchester - if those two counties want to play a match during the main season then they can do it right now. It'd be a friendly of course, but on paper so is Yorkshire - Lancashire! Perhaps simply too much other chess for this to ever happen.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: County duel brand

Postby Andrew Zigmond » Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:45 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:Yes definitely seems a very sane sort of idea(s) to me :)

One thing about Yorkshire/Manchester - if those two counties want to play a match during the main season then they can do it right now. It'd be a friendly of course, but on paper so is Yorkshire - Lancashire! Perhaps simply too much other chess for this to ever happen.


It depends how you define `friendly`. Yorkshire vs Lancashire still determines who wins the NCCU trophy, is still graded and of course has one hell of a lot of history.

I did float to Mick Norris the idea of a Yorkshire vs Manchester friendly at U140 level a few years but unfortunately around that time Alex approached me to take on the County Championship role and I had to decide that I could only do so much. As ever it needs volunteers to make it happen ...
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Mike Truran
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Re: County duel brand

Postby Mike Truran » Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:45 pm

Alex

Far too sensible.

It hasn't got a chance.

Mike

MartinCarpenter
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Re: County duel brand

Postby MartinCarpenter » Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:18 pm

Sadly I suspect so :( The only really big question is whether you'd want to stretch the final day to a full 4NCL style weekend - less travel, 3rd/4th place play offs etc - or keep it as a single day event. Debatable that I guess.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: County duel brand

Postby Andrew Zigmond » Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:06 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:Sadly I suspect so :( The only really big question is whether you'd want to stretch the final day to a full 4NCL style weekend - less travel, 3rd/4th place play offs etc - or keep it as a single day event. Debatable that I guess.


The 4NCL isn't the be all and end all of English chess (and nobody is suggesting it is). There is a place for alternatives of which the County Championships will always be one. Not everybody can commit to giving up a whole weekend to play chess away from home (I can't).

EDIT Also the key thing about the 4NCL is that Mike, Alex and the team do all the legwork; booking the venue, agreeing the conditions, sourcing and setting up the equipment. Captains have to select their teams and sort out a few transport issues but that's all there is to it.

By contrast County Captains have to find a suitable venue (not always easy without local knowledge), cart all the equipment there and back, arrange refreshments and that's even before you pick the team and work out the travel logistics. This assumes there are no arguments about the actual date and where a suitably neutral venue might be.
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Mick Norris
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Re: County duel brand

Postby Mick Norris » Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:17 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Michael Farthing wrote:Well Andrew, perhaps the whole thing can be solved by Yorkshire applying to joint the MCCU and resigning from the NCCU? Manchester might then simply stay where it is and everyone will be :-)


Yorkshire hat on for this one and all views my own.

I suspect your tongue was slightly in cheek but the idea is not without its merits. The MCCU probably wouldn't want Yorkshire and I know Greater Manchester find it a pain having to play every match away.


I think the MCCU would be open to an approach from Yorkshire, if it was explained why Yorkshire wanted to join

Of course, Yorkshire could enter 1 of their teams in the MCCU and another in the NCCU if they chose (I think Herts do this with the SCCU and EACU)
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Sean Hewitt
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Re: County duel brand

Postby Sean Hewitt » Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:59 am

Mick Norris wrote:I think the MCCU would be open to an approach from Yorkshire, if it was explained why Yorkshire wanted to join

This MCCU delegate would be supportive. Doesn't have to just be a Minor County team of course. There's games to be had at all grading levels if wanted.

Mick Norris
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Re: County duel brand

Postby Mick Norris » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:08 am

Yorks currently only have 2 teams, an Open team that only plays Lancs and an U160 team that plays Lancs & Cumbria

Like G Man, the number of teams is down to the number of captains, not players

The U160 in the MCCU is again Notts v Warks v G Man this season, so not much different I guess (although G Man friendly v Cumbria will hopefully take place again - maybe we could get Cumbria to apply to join the MCCU too)

The Minor in the MCCU is a thriving competition, not sure that Yorks have enough free dates to play due to the Yorks League and 4NCL fixtures
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Sean Hewitt
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Re: County duel brand

Postby Sean Hewitt » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:26 am

Mick Norris wrote:The Minor in the MCCU is a thriving competition, not sure that Yorks have enough free dates to play due to the Yorks League and 4NCL fixtures

True. Would be a good addition if they did though!

Mick Norris
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Re: County duel brand

Postby Mick Norris » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:33 am

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:The Minor in the MCCU is a thriving competition, not sure that Yorks have enough free dates to play due to the Yorks League and 4NCL fixtures

True. Would be a good addition if they did though!


Absolutely :D

I'm hoping we can get a G Man team back in it soon
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Michael Flatt
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Re: County duel brand

Postby Michael Flatt » Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:23 pm

Mick Norris wrote:I think the MCCU would be open to an approach from Yorkshire, if it was explained why Yorkshire wanted to join

Of course, Yorkshire could enter 1 of their teams in the MCCU and another in the NCCU if they chose (I think Herts do this with the SCCU and EACU)

Last season, Hertfordshire entered two teams in the EACU (Open and U160) and two in the SCCU (U140 and U120).

The EACU competition take place at a central venue (Newmarket in Suffolk) with each team playing two matches the same day (one in the morning and one in the afternoon). In the SCCU a single match on one day is played in the traditional home/away format and sometimes (rarely) at a neutral halfway venue.

Different captains have different views regarding the distance they are prepared to travel, playing a single or two games the same day, and playing all games outside the county. I believe the main benefit of playing in the EACU was to be able to compete on even terms rather than being the whipping boys in the SCCU. This year we don't have a captain for the Open so we won't be fielding a team.

Traditionally the SCCU was much bigger but over the years counties have split away. Buckinghamshire remains affiliated to the SCCU but prefers to play in the Chiltern League (along with Berkshire, Hampshire and Oxfordshire).

[1] EACU http://www.eacu.org.uk/
[2[ SCCU http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/index.htm
[3] SCCU County Championships (new site): http://sccu-chess.com
[4] Chiltern League (currently no content or broken): http://www.chilternleague.org.uk/

MartinCarpenter
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Re: County duel brand

Postby MartinCarpenter » Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:48 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:The Minor in the MCCU is a thriving competition, not sure that Yorks have enough free dates to play due to the Yorks League and 4NCL fixtures

True. Would be a good addition if they did though!


It'd be slightly tricky in some ways anyway - I'm fairly sure that the only real interest in the Open competition in Yorkshire relates to its status as a team containing 'everyone' from round the county. Much more than enough 'general' chess.

However a full strength Yorkshire open team would obviously rather tend to squash minor county level competition. A pure friendly vs GM is a little more tempting as there'd be less travel and it'd be (more than?) a proper test if some of the 3C's people joined in.

Mick Norris
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Re: County duel brand

Postby Mick Norris » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:00 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:The Minor in the MCCU is a thriving competition, not sure that Yorks have enough free dates to play due to the Yorks League and 4NCL fixtures

True. Would be a good addition if they did though!


It'd be slightly tricky in some ways anyway - I'm fairly sure that the only real interest in the Open competition in Yorkshire relates to its status as a team containing 'everyone' from round the county. Much more than enough 'general' chess.

However a full strength Yorkshire open team would obviously rather tend to squash minor county level competition. A pure friendly vs GM is a little more tempting as there'd be less travel and it'd be (more than?) a proper test if some of the 3C's people joined in.


That would be excellent, maybe we could get Alan Walton to captain both teams :wink:
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk


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