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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:13 pm 
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Good to see Paul and Matt are in conchord on the state of the nation.
I don't share their passionate belief, radical or otherwise, though.
Deaths by starvation in N. Korea were probably not random but allowed to impact mainly on the dissident and lower orders.
Just as the famines in Ireland and India were - to a lesser extent by design admittedly - under British rule. Those closest to the regime usually fare best until they are perceived as a threat.
But, who in a democracy is the threat?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:31 pm 
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According to recent posts about what is happening in America (see 'What is happening to Europe' thread) the threat to democracy, as always, is increasingly coming from the gov. and its arms.
Meanwhile, Dear Leader is lying in state (a la Lenin) in Pyongyang, and there will be a memorial service for him in Southall W. London on Friday.
"The meeting will mark Comrade Kim... who led the struggle of the tiny but defiant Korean nation to defeat US imperialism (with massive Chinese & Russian help - JM)..." CPGB

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:13 pm 
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Paul McKeown wrote:
John McKenna wrote:
First, don't recall the police using rubber bullets on mainland Britain, only N. Ireland. Perhaps RT could give dates and places they were used.



You are obviously not well informed, then. Baton rounds were first used in mainland Britain in 2002 in Dorchester.


Just to clarify John and Paul, Baton rounds were first used in mainland Britan during the Toxteth protests of July 1981. I witnessed the effects of them at close range, not a pretty sight!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:40 pm 
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Thank you for that information and your personal experience of it, Ian.
PS I believe it was Rob T. who brought it up here first then Paul M. supplied further info.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:43 am 
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I thought that they only used CS gas in Toxteth?* John asked what event would signal policy changes 'here'. The answer is either the death of a member of the royal family, a change in economic conditions, or Chris Moyles hosting Clue.

*At least that's what Hansard says. Rubber bullets and real bullets haven't been used for riot control.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:34 pm 
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Yes, any of those three things above would be signal events.
Speaking of which, how about this for one and a half out of three - the Duke of Cambridge is going to the Falklands on a tour of duty next year, suggest sending Moyles with him then our nuclear sub (ex-admiral Lord West recommends sending one in response to economic blockade of Falklands-flagged ships by Argentina, Brazil & Uruguay that they just announced) can do a rerun of "Sink the Belgrano".
That would cost us dear, though, so why don't we change the economic conditions by selling the Falklands to the highest bidder and use the money to repatriate the 3,000 or so islanders and their numerous sheep. Hopefully there will be plenty left over to go into the treasury deficit payback fund.
There are historical precendents - Napoleon sold Louisiana to the US and the Russian sold them Alaska.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:54 pm 
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IanDavis wrote:
I thought that they only used CS gas in Toxteth?* John asked what event would signal policy changes 'here'. The answer is either the death of a member of the royal family, a change in economic conditions, or Chris Moyles hosting Clue.

*At least that's what Hansard says. Rubber bullets and real bullets haven't been used for riot control.

My Apologies John, Paul, Ian et al, Ian you are correct about the use of CS gas being used during Toxteth Protests, it was a CS gas canister hitting a protestor I witnessed and not a baton round, I guess it was the way some canisters were fired at waist height that blurred the issue for me, also it was over 30 years ago!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:31 pm 
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I note your sig Ian

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler"

This is Einstein at his most wise.

For many years IMHO, kids were taught to round up and round down because fractions were only significant to two decimal places.

With the third scientific revolution of the twentieth century 'chaos theory' we started to understand that the numbers further to the right than two decimal places are just as important as those that exist to the left of the decimal point.

The biggest mathematical mystery in biology is biogenesis, ie you start out with one cell and less information than will fit on a DVD and end up with a blue whale an elephant or a species intent on wrecking the only known planet that life exists on in the universe.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:12 pm 
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PeterTurland wrote:
I note your sig Ian

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler"

This is Einstein at his most wise.

For many years IMHO, kids were taught to round up and round down because fractions were only significant to two decimal places.

With the third scientific revolution of the twentieth century 'chaos theory' we started to understand that the numbers further to the right than two decimal places are just as important as those that exist to the left of the decimal point.

The biggest mathematical mystery in biology is biogenesis, ie you start out with one cell and less information than will fit on a DVD and end up with a blue whale an elephant or a species intent on wrecking the only known planet that life exists on in the universe.


Yes Peter, Einstein Indeed.

How would you guess Pasteur would deal with the "Chicken or the Egg" poser? it just sets me off on an eternal loop!

regards

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:29 pm 
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Ian P Stephens wrote:
PeterTurland wrote:
I note your sig Ian

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler"

This is Einstein at his most wise.

For many years IMHO, kids were taught to round up and round down because fractions were only significant to two decimal places.

With the third scientific revolution of the twentieth century 'chaos theory' we started to understand that the numbers further to the right than two decimal places are just as important as those that exist to the left of the decimal point.

The biggest mathematical mystery in biology is biogenesis, ie you start out with one cell and less information than will fit on a DVD and end up with a blue whale an elephant or a species intent on wrecking the only known planet that life exists on in the universe.


Yes Peter, Einstein Indeed.

How would you guess Pasteur would deal with the "Chicken or the Egg" poser? it just sets me off on an eternal loop!

regards


I hate paradoxes because they contradict themselves and you have mentioned the oldest one of them all.

Once an inkling as to how evolution works is gained, one come across the idea that multicellular organisms have a precursor, namely unicellular organisms.

The evidence says before around 800 million years ago, life was not multicellular, it was just a one cell organism that multiplied by dividing. ie it split in half, with the the new half being the egg and the old half being the chicken. The chicken and the egg are the same thing at different times. Once you take time into consideration, the chicken and the egg are the same.

Contextually speaking, if you go back far enough, amoeba's were our grandmothers and grandfathers.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:54 pm 
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PeterTurland wrote:

The evidence says before around 800 million years ago, life was not multicellular, it was just a one cell organism that multiplied by dividing. ie it split in half, with the the new half being the egg and the old half being the chicken.


This is a bizarre and almost entirely incorrect way of trying to solve the chicken and egg paradox. Whilst the theory of evolution is indeed the correct approach, the way you have applied it here appears to be devoid of any elementary knowledge about how it works. The idea that the old have of a single celled organism is the chicken, with the old half being the egg, is contrary to the entire discipline of embryology.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:26 am 
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Sorry to interrupt the Great Biogenesis Debate - two news items.
First, S. Korean intelligence cast doubt on official version of Kim's death that he died on his train undertaking a tour of inspection of the nation's defences. His train never moved at all last weekend it seems.
Second, Chinese gov. denies all knowledge of British-registered ship trying to leave a German port bound for Shanghai with 60 Patriot missiles aboard.
Finally, in Japan their dish of chicken & egg on rice is 'mother & child' rice.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:52 am 
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Rob Thompson wrote:
PeterTurland wrote:

The evidence says before around 800 million years ago, life was not multicellular, it was just a one cell organism that multiplied by dividing. ie it split in half, with the the new half being the egg and the old half being the chicken.


This is a bizarre and almost entirely incorrect way of trying to solve the chicken and egg paradox. Whilst the theory of evolution is indeed the correct approach, the way you have applied it here appears to be devoid of any elementary knowledge about how it works. The idea that the old have of a single celled organism is the chicken, with the old half being the egg, is contrary to the entire discipline of embryology.


Please forgive me, unlike you I do not know everything.

Please as you are such a genius, please explain to me and all the other fools out there, how the single celled organism can be both the chicken and the older half being the egg.

Why cannot you accept, the chicken and the egg are the same thing at different times?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:53 am 
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PeterTurland wrote:
Why cannot you accept, the chicken and the egg are the same thing at different times?


That's not really what the 'paradox' is about, though. It is not asking if they are the same thing or not, but it is asking what came first. Ultimately, everything has a history that can be traced back to the singularity at the beginning of the universe, and that is as far as it is possible to go, though there are various interesting theories. PS. Has this become the 'philosophical musings' thread? If so, we could keep everything here and not have it in other threads?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:03 am 
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So, the paradox - is the chicken the mother and the egg the child? Or is the egg the mother and the chick(en) the child?
The possibility that they were both simultaneously mother and child at some point in evolutionary history seems to be entering the quantum realms.
In laymans terms there is no paradox as eggs clearly existed - in species - before chickens.
In philosophical terms the paradox is - how can something either come from nothing or exist eternally without a progenitor?

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