Why is Joey Barton such a c*ck?

A section to discuss matters not related to Chess in particular.
John McKenna

Re: Why is Joey Barton such a c*ck?

Post by John McKenna » Wed May 16, 2012 6:05 pm

Somewhat peripheral but speaking of 'sacks (of spuds)' the Liverpool manager just got it - the sack that is. Who is next for a hot potato?

Alan Burke

Re: Why is Joey Barton such a c*ck?

Post by Alan Burke » Wed May 16, 2012 6:12 pm

Paul, I totally agree with you that inflicting violence on someone deserves far greater punishment than a player feigning injury, but in no way am I trying to compare those two actions. The two You Tube examples shown by David prove the point I am trying to make ... the footballer is hit by the ball in the chest yet falls on the floor holding his head, whereas the rugby player actually punches the head of his opponent, who still remains on his feet even though he is badly hurt.

I am not condoning the action of the rugby player - he too should be brought before the courts for GBH - but it shows that such an action does not always cause the other person to fall to the ground and roll about in totally agony.

The point in question does not even need to be in a sporting context - you often see street brawls on the news where several punches and kicks are exchanged without those involved immediately going to ground - so, again, why does the simplest of contact to a footballer leave him rolling in agony on the floor ?

Ian Kingston
Posts: 1071
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:16 pm
Location: Sutton Coldfield
Contact:

Re: Why is Joey Barton such a c*ck?

Post by Ian Kingston » Wed May 16, 2012 7:14 pm

Alan Burke wrote:The point in question does not even need to be in a sporting context - you often see street brawls on the news where several punches and kicks are exchanged without those involved immediately going to ground - so, again, why does the simplest of contact to a footballer leave him rolling in agony on the floor ?
Because the rules of football reward players who can convince the officials that they've been fouled, there are even greater rewards for convincing them that the foul was worse than it actually was, and the penalties for such behaviour are minimal.

Fall over in a street brawl and you'll get a serious kicking. The 'rules of the game' are different.

Paul McKeown
Posts: 3732
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Hayes (Middx)

Re: Why is Joey Barton such a c*ck?

Post by Paul McKeown » Sun May 20, 2012 10:37 am

Ian Kingston wrote:Because the rules of football reward players who can convince the officials that they've been fouled, there are even greater rewards for convincing them that the foul was worse than it actually was, and the penalties for such behaviour are minimal.
The rules allow the ref to punish play-acting severely. I would love to see a few sendings off pour encourager les autres. I would agree with Alan that overwrought ballerinas in studs and stripes flooding the pitch with tears of salt undermines the credibility of the game.
Ian Kingston wrote:Fall over in a street brawl and you'll get a serious kicking. The 'rules of the game' are different.
Rugby players tend to treat each other with more respect, partly as they know that if the fellow wearing the no. 5's shirt says that he will be more than happy to put manners on someone, he actually means it and it's going to hurt. The game is tough enough as it is without unnecessary aggro, so, in the end, everyone tends to accept the ref's word.

Ian Kingston
Posts: 1071
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:16 pm
Location: Sutton Coldfield
Contact:

Re: Why is Joey Barton such a c*ck?

Post by Ian Kingston » Sun May 20, 2012 11:41 am

Paul McKeown wrote:
Ian Kingston wrote:Because the rules of football reward players who can convince the officials that they've been fouled, there are even greater rewards for convincing them that the foul was worse than it actually was, and the penalties for such behaviour are minimal.
The rules allow the ref to punish play-acting severely. I would love to see a few sendings off pour encourager les autres. I would agree with Alan that overwrought ballerinas in studs and stripes flooding the pitch with tears of salt undermines the credibility of the game.
I wasn't seeking to justify the behaviour of footballers - just explaining why it happens. I'm as opposed to the play acting as anyone else.

Referees certainly can punish play-acting, but on the whole they don't. Sending off an innocent party is a bad idea, which is why referees tend not to take the risk. I would suggest giving automatic yellow cards for dissent as a starting point - as happened with Fernando Torres towards the end of the Champions League final.
Paul McKeown wrote:
Ian Kingston wrote:Fall over in a street brawl and you'll get a serious kicking. The 'rules of the game' are different.
Rugby players tend to treat each other with more respect, partly as they know that if the fellow wearing the no. 5's shirt says that he will be more than happy to put manners on someone, he actually means it and it's going to hurt. The game is tough enough as it is without unnecessary aggro, so, in the end, everyone tends to accept the ref's word.
On top of which, lying down and feigning injury gets you nothing because a foul has probably not been committed - knocking people over is very much part of the game.

Paul McKeown
Posts: 3732
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Hayes (Middx)

Re: Why is Joey Barton such a c*ck?

Post by Paul McKeown » Sun May 20, 2012 1:35 pm

Ian Kingston wrote:Referees certainly can punish play-acting, but on the whole they don't. Sending off an innocent party is a bad idea, which is why referees tend not to take the risk. I would suggest giving automatic yellow cards for dissent as a starting point - as happened with Fernando Torres towards the end of the Champions League final.
Couldn't disagree with the idea of issuing automatic yellow cards for dissent at at all. Although "sending off an innocent party is a bad idea, which is why referees tend not to take the risk" does beg question, why referees seem unconcerned with handing out reds for tackles which weren't!

None of this explains why Joey Barton is such a thug, though. He gets himself sent off for flagrantly swinging his petulant little fists and kneeing the opponents in plain view of the ref, standing all of five feet away.

Ian Kingston
Posts: 1071
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:16 pm
Location: Sutton Coldfield
Contact:

Re: Why is Joey Barton such a c*ck?

Post by Ian Kingston » Sun May 20, 2012 2:03 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:
Ian Kingston wrote:Referees certainly can punish play-acting, but on the whole they don't. Sending off an innocent party is a bad idea, which is why referees tend not to take the risk. I would suggest giving automatic yellow cards for dissent as a starting point - as happened with Fernando Torres towards the end of the Champions League final.
Couldn't disagree with the idea of issuing automatic yellow cards for dissent at at all. Although "sending off an innocent party is a bad idea, which is why referees tend not to take the risk" does beg question, why referees seem unconcerned with handing out reds for tackles which weren't!
True enough, although 'unconcerned' might be putting it a bit strongly. I suppose it's psychologically easier to punish someone for a foul than for a dive.

Alan Burke

Re: Why is Joey Barton such a c*ck?

Post by Alan Burke » Sun May 20, 2012 5:39 pm

One of the reasons why football referees "won't take the risk" with decisions is that they probably won't get the backing from the authorities (FIFA, the FA, etc). There is too much player-power in football and those in charge of the game are wary of upsetting their "stars".

A few years ago football introduced the rugby-style rule of advancing a free-kick 10 yards if players argued about a decision - and just how many times do you see that rule employed thesedays after mangers/players/clubs complained about it ? Only when the powers of the game stop pussyfooting about will football ever get itself under control.

As an example from Rugby League; I personally know of a situation a few years ago where the then captain of Great Britain disputed a decision whilst playing for his club side and was sin-binned for 10 minutes by the referee. However, the player made another comment and the referee changed it to a red card and dismissed him. The player was ultimately banned and the International captaincy was taken from him. Everyone who knew the player was aware that it was certainly out of character for him and that he had just seen the red mist for a few seconds. However, rather than appeal, both himself and his club made a personal apology to the referee - can you really imagine that happening in football ?

David Robertson

Re: Why is Joey Barton such a c*ck?

Post by David Robertson » Mon May 21, 2012 12:06 am

As for his abilities as a footballer, perhaps the best way to sum it up is that the fourth-worst team in the Premier League were looking to move him on even before his latest return to ignominy. Barton made more inaccurate passes, 490, in the opposition half than any other top-division player last season. Manchester United were linked with him last summer and Sir Alex Ferguson was bewildered. "What kind of manager do they think I am?" he asked of the newspaper that printed it.
Found here http://bit.ly/M5A12m

Kevin Thurlow
Posts: 5820
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: Why is Joey Barton such a c*ck?

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Mon May 21, 2012 8:16 am

Alan is talking a lot of sense. Can we also get referees to show a yellow card to everyone who wrestles with an opponent in the penalty area whilst a corner is taken? Once games are down to 7 a side and there have been 8 goals scored from penalties, it might calm things down.

But of course FA and FIFA wouldn't allow it...
"Kevin was the arbiter and was very patient. " Nick Grey

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Why is Joey Barton such a c*ck?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon May 21, 2012 9:46 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:But of course FA and FIFA wouldn't allow it...
Worth remembering that the people who make the rules are IFAB, which is composed of:
FIFA (4 votes)
FA [England] (1 vote)
SFA [Scotland] (1 vote)
FAW [Wales] (1 vote)
IFA [Northern Ireland] (1 vote)

And that rulechanges are by a three-quarters majority.

If FIFA wanted it, I'm sure they wouldn't have much difficulty in persuading two of the four Home Nations.

User avatar
John Clarke
Posts: 710
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:07 pm

Re: Why is Joey Barton such a c*ck?

Post by John Clarke » Mon May 21, 2012 1:06 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:Once games are down to 7 a side and there have been 8 goals scored from penalties, it might calm things down.
It would have to. The laws say a team must have a minimum of 7 players - any fewer on either side, and the game has to be abandoned.
"The chess-board is the world ..... the player on the other side is hidden from us ..... he never overlooks a mistake, or makes the smallest allowance for ignorance."
(He doesn't let you resign and start again, either.)

Alistair Campbell
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:53 pm

Re: Why is Joey Barton such a c*ck?

Post by Alistair Campbell » Tue May 22, 2012 3:59 pm

John Clarke wrote:
Kevin Thurlow wrote:Once games are down to 7 a side and there have been 8 goals scored from penalties, it might calm things down.
It would have to. The laws say a team must have a minimum of 7 players - any fewer on either side, and the game has to be abandoned.

Technically, the laws state that each team must have a minimum of 7 players before a match can start, but whether or not a match can continue with fewer than 7 on one side is left to the discretion of member associations. /pedantry.

There’s lots of other good stuff to comment on.

Joey Barton – what makes anyone a thug? Nature v nurture is too deep for me right now. However, I suspect he is just a heidbanger, and a bit of a faux-intellectual (c.f Chris Eubank(s)). I don’t follow him on twitter (most of the footballers I do follow are today being emptied, which is a shame :cry: , particularly given events in the South West of Glasgow :? ). How do his tweets compare to those of, say, Rio Ferdinand and Stan Collymore?

Play acting. I noted that Joey attempted to stick the heid on some QPR boy in that incident, and the latter was so shocked that he forgot to collapse, which would surely have happened had the game been in progress. I think this may be significant. I suspect “cheating” falls into one of 3 categories.
  • Basic deceit –no excuses for this.

    A knee-jerk :) reaction to appealing for throw-ins (throws-in??) and corners – a bit like some bowlers appeal to the umpire on the off-chance there has been a nick. Relatively trivial, IMO

    Similar to the above, but overstated in key situations to reflect the potential game-changing nature of the officials’ decision. Essentially saying “ref, a foul has been committed and I have exaggerated my physical reaction to draw the importance of this to your and everyone else’s attention”. I think in the situation under discussion, Tevez had a go at Barton first – had Barton gone down, rather than retaliate, the outcome could have been different. So to answer Alan Burke’s question, a lack of trust in the ability of the officials to make the “correct” decision may lie at the heart of this.
Incidentally, in Scotland players guilty of diving can be punished retrospectively – e.g. Sone Aluko got a two match ban for a dive (although the penalty he won still counted). Is there an equivalent in England?

And off-topic, the last match I attended, there was a goal-keeper making his debut. The keeper hailed from Zafra. Who else came from Zafra (and for a bonus point, name the goalie)?

David Robertson

Re: Why is Joey Barton such a c*ck?

Post by David Robertson » Tue May 22, 2012 4:59 pm

The goalkeeper was Ruy Lopez. And the other bloke was Bernardo Dominguez Fernandez who invented the chess opening, the Dumfermline Defence

Alan Burke

Re: Why is Joey Barton such a c*ck?

Post by Alan Burke » Tue May 22, 2012 8:04 pm

Although I would agree with Alistair's comment that players might have a lack of trust in the ability of the officials to make correct decisions, that is probably because of their own biased perception of a referee's ability. Players, managers and supporters are always convinced that a referee is making wrong decisions against their team, yet statistics have actually proven that although, yes, officials do make errors, they are very minimal compared to those they get right. Therefore I do not agree that the above is a reason why footballers constantly cheat during a game.

No, footballers are not concerned whether they win the game by skill or ability; they will just try any method they can as long as they get the desired result - including blatant cheating.

If Alistair's theory is correct then why do rugby players / cricketers / snooker players, etc, etc not resort to such tactics ? Surely the referees of those sports are not 100% correct every time yet you don't very often see those players try to gain an advantage by such unfair means. (Yes, there have been the odd occasions but in no way do they match the number of times that footballers try it on.)

Post Reply