Operation Barbarossa - the official start time...

[John McKenna]

Peter D Williams>… I am trying to work out... the exact start time the German army invaded the Soviet Union according to Molotov (Soviet Foreign Minister) it was on 22 June 1941 at 4 a.m. I have come across other sources giving a different time...<
According to my source (a translation of German Army Chief of General Staff, Colonel-General Franz Halder's War Diary) "On 14 June 1941 Hitler held a meeting of Army High Command... He confirmed the new date for the invasion - 22 June. But the time of the attack was shifted from 03:30 to 03:00 hrs."
The Germans opened fire before dawn and without warning. Local Soviet commanders on the ground suspected an attack was imminent but Stalin in Moscow - for reasons of his own - did not want to believe it. Though his military advisors managed to persuade him to call up almost 800,000 reservists for training at the end of May.
Hitler described Operation Barbarossa as the largest military assault in history, he was probably right, and let's hope it remains forever so.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

I've been reading about World War I recently, and what amazes me is the sheer number of men and materiel being moved around, and how they managed to co-ordinate it all, though there was a lot of confusion as well, and what someone (Clausewitz?) called the 'fog of war', where commanders have to make decisions with insufficient information.

[John McKenna]

It seems to me, Chris, that one possible difference between WWI and WWII is that the former was a soldiers' war - with generals calling the shots - while the latter was more of a politicians' war - with national leaders calling them because they did not trust the generals after their failures in the earlier conflict. Also, there were more static fields of battle in the 1st so communication was easier than in the 2nd, despite the advances in radio technology. British radios were (still are?) famous for malfunctioning and the Germans relied too much on routine Enigma encoding on their superior radios, so kept giving the game away.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

It seems to me, Chris, that one possible difference between WWI and WWII is that the former was a soldiers' war - with generals calling the shots - while the latter was more of a politicians' war - with national leaders calling them because they did not trust the generals after their failures in the earlier conflict. Also, there were more static fields of battle in the 1st so communication was easier than in the 2nd, despite the advances in radio technology. British radios were (still are?) famous for malfunctioning and the Germans relied too much on routine Enigma encoding on their superior radios, so kept giving the game away.

Interesting. You are absolutely right to say that the generals called the shots in WWI, though the politicians did have their say as well. The number of times the top generals got replaced was not insignificant. And the battle I've been reading about (the Marne in 1914) was not one of the static battles, far from it. I've not read anything like enough, though, about the Eastern Fronts in both wars. Mainly the Western Front of WWI.

[John McKenna]

Don't forget the Italian and Turkish fronts in the Great War either. Italy was on the Allied side in that conflict, as was Japan.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Don't forget the Italian and Turkish fronts in the Great War either. Italy was on the Allied side in that conflict, as was Japan.

Heh. The other book (of several) on WWI that I'm reading is Forgotten Battlefronts of the First World War. It covers the Belgian fronts (the initial invasion battles, the battles along the Yser, and the coastal defences), the battles in the Vosges (relatively low mountain range on the French-German border), the Italian fronts (the real Alpine battles, rather horrendous conditions to fight in), and then the front in Salonika. Not got to that last one yet.

There are going to be a lot of books about the Great War coming out over the next few years. As if there weren't quite enough already. WW2, I tend to stick to the documentaries and films... (Stanlingrad, that sort of thing).

[Peter D Williams]

According to my source (a translation of German Army Chief of General Staff, Colonel-General Franz Halder's War Diary) "On 14 June 1941 Hitler held a meeting of Army High Command... He confirmed the new date for the invasion - 22 June. But the time of the attack was shifted from 03:30 to 03:00 hrs."
The Germans opened fire before dawn and without warning. Local Soviet commanders on the ground suspected an attack was imminent but Stalin in Moscow - for reasons of his own - did not want to believe it. Though his military advisors managed to persuade him to call up almost 800,000 reservists for training at the end of May.
Hitler described Operation Barbarossa as the largest military assault in history, he was probably right, and let's hope it remains forever so.

I have a source saying it was 3 15 am the commander of the black sea fleet in a telephone call to Georgy Malenkov stated that the Germans had stated a bombing raid at 3 15 am on the navel base of Sevastrpol but at first he refused to believe this and phoned him back in private to confirm that this was indeed true.Yes i agree Stalin did not want to believe this and it is said on hearing the news he sank in his chair and said nothing.
I think the 4 am start in the attack is wrong and i would go with early having looked at a number of sources

Since April of 1941 small teams of silent raiding parties of the Sonderverband Brabdennburg(named after the barracks on edge of berlin) where already in Russia cutting telephone lines removing demolition charges on roads and bridges As early as 29 April Russia was aware of this and had manger to capture a few alive who where hand over to the NKGB(Security police who did the interrogations of German prisoners)

Right time for lunch game soup today

[Alex Holowczak]

On a vaguely related theme: http://www.amazon.com/Surrender-Agreeme ... roduct_top

[David Robertson]

Nice find! Been wanting one of these for a while. So I've bought it. Wonder what happens now

[John McKenna]

Sorry David, but the seller is misrepresenting the document - it may well be the German unconditional surrender but it is patently not the one that "ended WWII". That document was the unconditional surrender of the Empire of Japan - signed on 2 Sept. 1945 on the quarterdeck of the USS Missouri, at anchor in Tokyo Bay. I kid you not.
The 5 kg. jar of Nutella advertised underneath looks genuine. Though I can't picture Peter tucking into that with his crusty loaf.

[Peter D Williams]

Sorry David, but the seller is misrepresenting the document - it may well be the German unconditional surrender but it is patently not the one that "ended WWII". That document was the unconditional surrender of the Empire of Japan - signed on 2 Sept. 1945 on the quarterdeck of the USS Missouri, at anchor in Tokyo Bay. I kid you not.
The 5 kg. jar of Nutella advertised underneath looks genuine. Though I can't picture Peter tucking into that with his crusty loaf.

No I would not eat Nutella yuk Game soup with crusty bread was delicious.

Captain Von Rosenbach-Lepiniski is said to have told his motorcycle reconnaissance battalion the war with Russia will only last four weeks
Lot of horses where used to by both sides over 600,000 horses where used by the German army.

Soon be 6 pm then i can have a Gin and Tonic.

[Peter D Williams]

In Novermeber 1941 German troops could see with their binoculars the muzzle flashes of the anti-aircraft batteries defending the Kremlin in Moscow and when Zhukov had this confirmed by sending up spotter planes telling him how near the German troops where Stalin refused to believe how near German troops where and it was only after 3 spotter planes confirmed this that he then agreed to Zhukov plan to hold the line in Kryukovo with the order " No falling back" Russian resistance was so determined after this that the German forces slowed to a halt.

Lice where anther problem both sides had to deal with and in some case men went mad and shot their self because of this.Lice are parasitic insects that can be found on people's heads, and bodies . Human lice survive by feeding on human blood. Lice found on each area of the body are different from each other.
It was forbidden for German troops to talk about the issue of lice when on leave back in Germany as it was feared it would demoralize the home population.

Right time for hot cholcate. See you all tomorrow

[John McKenna]

In April 1941, the month before the Nazi German invasion of Soviet Russia, Rommel's Afrika Corps cut off and besieged the port fortress Tobruk. The siege lasted until December (by then the Germans were almost in sight of Moscow.) During those 8 months, or so, Tobruk's defenders were plagued by flies - not your relatively harmless housefly but the aggessive N. African desert variety. Eating was a particular problem and ingenious methods were devised to avoid getting mouthfuls of the little beggars. However, some men were literally driven to madness by their constant annoyance and a few even commited suicide a result. (Hope you ate hearty and digested fully before reading this, Peter.)
Note that the N. African campaign preceded, and then ran in parallel with, Operation Barbarossa. Once that started Stalin soon requested a "second front" (by that he meant an invasion of Europe) from his Western Allies. This ready-made front in N. Africa was the closest the Allies came to a 2nd one in 1941-2. Although something of a sideshow when compared to Barbarossa the eventually successful N. Africa campaign - in the medium term - and the disastrous Greek campaign - in the short-term - may both have made a small but significant difference to the outcome of the main event.
(Incidentally, I am listening to Wagner's Rienzi as I write this.)

[John Clarke]

Paul Johnson, on p372 of A History of the Modern World (paperback edition, Weidenfield, 1984), cites an incident that supposedly took place around 3.10-3.15 am. German intelligence intercepted an exchange between an advance Soviet unit and its HQ:

We are being fired on. What shall we do?

You must be insane! Why is your message not in code?

Stalin was apparently not informed of the invasion till 3.40am; his initial response was a disbelieving silence.

All this seems to support the 3am start time.

Johnson's source for this passage was John Erickson's The Soviet High Command, A Military and Political History 1918-41, published 1962.

[Peter D Williams]

In April 1941, the month before the Nazi German invasion of Soviet Russia, Rommel's Afrika Corps cut off and besieged the port fortress Tobruk. The siege lasted until December (by then the Germans were almost in sight of Moscow.) During those 8 months, or so, Tobruk's defenders were plagued by flies - not your relatively harmless housefly but the aggessive N. African desert variety. Eating was a particular problem and ingenious methods were devised to avoid getting mouthfuls of the little beggars. However, some men were literally driven to madness by their constant annoyance and a few even commited suicide a result. (Hope you ate hearty and digested fully before reading this, Peter.)
Note that the N. African campaign preceded, and then ran in parallel with, Operation Barbarossa. Once that started Stalin soon requested a "second front" (by that he meant an invasion of Europe) from his Western Allies. This ready-made front in N. Africa was the closest the Allies came to a 2nd one in 1941-2. Although something of a sideshow when compared to Barbarossa the eventually successful N. Africa campaign - in the medium term - and the disastrous Greek campaign - in the short-term - may both have made a small but significant difference to the outcome of the main event.
(Incidentally, I am listening to Wagner's Rienzi as I write this.)

Evening all

Very interesting about the N Africa fly i will show Peter about this fly it would put Carol off her dinner but nothing puts me off my food I am getting hungry now i think its chicken tonight with nice glass of white wine chilled
Yes your right that it may have made a small difference to the outcome i have not fully studied the N African campaign my interest is in the German invasion of Russia and the defense of Stalingrad.

New fridge and new freezer coming tomorrow so wont be able to check in on here as i am busy moving things around.