The Labour Leadership Debate!!

[John McKenna]

The posting elsewhere on the forum of the article below -

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ory-voters

has raised the continuing spectre of a series of seriously-flawed candidates.

Foot, Kinnock, Smith, Beckett, Blair & Brown (came as a right pair & left on their separate ways), Harman, Miliband, Harman...

Tonite the saga moves to LBC -

http://www.lbc.co.uk/lbc-labour-leaders ... 7pm-113343

Already Tony Blair & Magaret Beckett have respectively 'dissed' and disowned one of the candidates.

Guess who?

The only true Labour one out of the four on show.

According to Tony, should JC actually win the leadership contest he could never lead Labour to victory in a General Election.

Tony went on about his three unprecedented victories but what he seems to never have realised is that after the second one he should have ditched the Thatcherite policies he borrowed form the Tories and broke his election pledges just like they do.

He should also have followed a Wilsonian foreign policy and kept out of the Iraq war - just as Harold kept us out of Vietnam.

I know people will say that I am speaking with the benefit of hindsight but I wouldn't have to if these supposedly brilliant politicians exercised a modicum of foresight, which they seem to totally lack, as the artcicle (top link above) points out -

Burnham has calibrated his position accordingly, praising Corbyn’s role and leaving open the option of including him in the shadow cabinet. Labour MPs presume this is a tactical feint. Backers of rival candidates view it with disdain. They fear Burnham’s leadership would be compromised by the same debt to an intransigent left that Miliband incurred to win the crown, and which caused him endless strife. “Has he never played chess?” asks one despairing shadow cabinet minister. “Can he not see more than one move ahead?”

(With thanks to David Robertson for picking it out and putting it up on the "Media Comments on Chess" thread)

Margaret regrets nominating JC because she didn't think he'd get any real support and just be the token socialist in the pile.

I'm eagerly awaiting Gordo the Great to make a pronouncement - I am sure he's brooding on it but he may leave it too late, again.

We shall see...

[David Pardoe]

Unfortunately the last election descended into a farce, with the media determined to take pot shots at various candidates in an attempt to dramatize the election to presumably generate maximum media interest....entertainment..??
So the essential political messages were drowned out, as the smart alec media pundits attempted to score max points against the various candidates. So the real messages were lost, and various candidates lost the plot, and were wrong footed by various media attacks.
Those panel shows, where the candidates appeared on screen, and were bombarded with ridiculous questions and challenges, and were not allowed to speak in a considered and calm manner... Sensible debate was almost nowhere to be seen.
And we had the farcical scenes of `opinion polls` being thrust in candidates faces and asking them why there messages weren't getting across...???

And no one challenged those Scots Nats nutters, whose only message really is `two fingers to GB` ...`we want our independence`, and as many perks as we can get to go with it...and they certainly don't want to take any hits or costs in the process. The UK taxpayer can pay for any problems and cover any short falls. Alex `Slippery Kipper` came out afterwards and said they were now mandated to seek independence, having conned the Scottish electorate into supporting them with a clean sweep...the ticket was `back us and we`ll negotiate a better deal`....but the reality is that this lot just want the votes so they can push again for the independence, which the Scottish people have voted against.
We now have this bunch, who have displaced some very good political figures, both Lib Dem and Labour + some Tories... snapping for changes to suit the Scots, on the pretext that if they don't like whats on offer they`ll take off with as much booty as they can lay hands on and go `independent`...which I don't think the average Scot actually wants. It would be a disaster in my book...and the even crazier point is..they want to be part of the Eurozone, ruled from Brussels.. ??
I do accept the complaints about the Westminster bubble...too much focus on the South East corner and those greedy bankers..etc..
Osborne quickly cobbled together a Northern power house to try to deflect from the follies...but the Manchester Leeds link is now cancelled..!!??

Returning....
Crazy... Mr Cameron even refused to appear on one of those `chat shows`/debates, such was the obvious circus environment that the media were attempting to create.
And poor Miliband never had a chance... with questions like `are you really a serious candidate for Election`, ie, shouldn't you stand down and let a stronger man take the helm of Labour....? Personal attacks that were simply rude and out of order...not that I am any fan of Miliband..
And of course, those stupid questions about the opinion polls... and would Labour team up with the Scots Nats, etc... `when` the coalition deals were done for the `hung` Parliament that had been predicted... as a 100% nailed on certainty ??
So Labour failed to get there message out in this media joke setup.....and the Tories managed to wriggle round some key questions and duck others with the usual clever evasion... The Tory machine is nothing, if not well funded and well oiled..
And UKIP were almost hero worshipped at times and given far too much air time, considering they had almost no recognised candidates and even fewer actual policies.. Yes, they made some fair points..but are no more than a protest party really.
Then, you had the Lib Dems...who, in my view had done a fair job holding the coalition together for 5 years and at least making an honest and respectable effort at trying to help steer the country out of a mess created in no small part by our bankers and others, who had wrecked the economy in circa 2008, whilst all parties and regulators had simply watched and done nothing to flag the impending disasters..

Labour, although I am not a particular fan...had actually done some good things in the years up to 2010, and I actually think that Gordon Brown and others do deserve some credit for managing to avoid a total crash of our western monetary systems.. The US jokers also played a big part in creating the mayhem..using various market instruments to create a near melt down of economies.

Of course Tony Blair had seen the storm clouds and timed his exit to perfection..it would appear..
The Middle East is a real can of worms...we were hauled into that conflicts by the US thugs, who think they are the worlds police force.
But a mission to try to neutralise some dark forces was probably unavoidable. Trouble is...one bad group seems to get replaced by even worse groups waiting in the wings....all locked in a mad power struggles between various ethnic groups, led by lunatics, it appears.
It looks like a rerun of the wars of the Middle ages....

Somehow, a peaceful settlement needs to be sorted, to enable all parties to live in harmony. The key is sharing.. and building for the people. Unfortunately, a few power crazed clowns just want war... Until this mentality changes, we are in a mess, with huge numbers of people forced to flee, and head across the Med to Europe...and onto Callaise, so it seems.

We`ll see what our new political groups can make of all this, and it probably doesn't matter too much just now, who the Labour lot choose as there leader.. Non appear to stand out...
The major global issues of pollution, and over population stand out...and policies should be aimed at stability rather than growth. I keep thinking that debt reduction might be quite useful...but the economists no doubt see things differently.

[Matt Mackenzie]

Am gravitating to the idea that it might be worth Corbyn getting it just for the larfs, tbh.

After all, if people say they would vote Boris for exactly that reason......

[Nick Burrows]

I'm firmly behind Corbyn. Good man, straight talker, believes in his ideas and will give the Tories clear opposition rather than the limp, fearful, all things to all people policies they have been pursuing. The whole point of Labour is to represent working people, but it no longer does so.
Corbyn will be a breath of fresh air. Many "experts" are saying he is unelectable, but they have been in power as socialists before and can be again. If the economy slows down due to Austerity phase 2, or if and when there is another financial crash, people will want an alternative - as in Scotland, Sanders in the US and Podemos, Syriza etc.

[Roger de Coverly]

Corbyn will be a breath of fresh air.

Well perhaps. Essentially though he hates the English and supports all their (our) enemies. He probably regrets the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union. I doubt he's that keen on Israelis either.

He was first elected in 1983 on the basis of the manifesto written by Tony Benn. There's every indication that he still believes in what it said, notwithstanding the likes of Blair, Brown and others elected alongside him who found it expedient to disown it.

[Matt Mackenzie]

I'm not terribly sure that characterising Jezza as pro-Soviet is that accurate, tbh.

He comes very much from the Trot rather than Stalinist (eg Scargill and arguably G Galloway) strain of the hard left.

[Nick Burrows]

Corbyn will be a breath of fresh air.

Well perhaps. Essentially though he hates the English and supports all their (our) enemies. He probably regrets the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union. I doubt he's that keen on Israelis either.

He was first elected in 1983 on the basis of the manifesto written by Tony Benn. There's every indication that he still believes in what it said, notwithstanding the likes of Blair, Brown and others elected alongside him who found it expedient to disown it.

Just because somebody is not blindly patriotic, and can see that in many International disputes there are 2 sides to the story, it does not follow that he 'hates the English'. Much better someone who values and fosters peaceful resolution ahead of the usual war mongering, jump on the back of the first American Gunship excuse for a leader we usually have.

Imo there is much of value in the 1983 manifesto, as agreed by much current popular opinion.; renationalise the rail, scrap trident, investment in infrastructure. The main reason Labour lost was Thatcher's popularity from sailing warships round the world to defend a tiny island.
Just because some politicians did what was necessary to get elected, in no way means that their ideology was superior; just that it would get them elected.

As is now widely accepted by economists, wealth inequality is rapidly widening and the 2008 crash could be a manifestation of this. Perhaps the neo-liberal economics experiment of the past 30 years is about to be proved deeply unstable.

Certainly stripping welfare from the poorest to be offered in tax breaks for the wealthiest is certainly not the way to build a cohesive society and one that I will never support

[John McKenna]

Well said, Nick, I couldn't agree more.

Jeremy Corbyn's entry into the race has been compared by one Labour MP (backed up by the Daily Mail - see link below) to the entryism of the Militant Tendency into the party from the 1970s on.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ction.html

Not really comparable I think and I am in agreement, for once, with Diane Abbot when she says it's nothing to worry about. (Though Caroline Flint and other MPs have called for an investigation into the £3-membership "loophole" in the link above.)

More comparable is the smooth move to the right by New Labour in the late 1990s. The Corbyn phenomenon is simply a natural swing back to the left, which is the traditional position of the grassroots. Ken Livingstone pointed out, yesterday, that in recent years the selection process for parliamentary candidates has been one of weeding out leftwingers like him!

For too long the newly-grown rightist tail has been wagging the old left-leaning dog. What we are witnessing is a putative extinction of socialism within the Labour Party, which if it succeds will reduce it to an American-style party akin to the Democrats.

Meanwhile the Engish equivalent of the conservative American Republicans - the Monarchist Tories - continue with their root-and-branch campaign of privatisation, dismantling of the welfare state and the eradication of socialism from all walks of life in this country. We are receding from being a periperal member of the mildly-socialist EU and heading towards becoming an offshore offshoot of the US - a banana monarchy, similar to the "Commonwealth" of Puerto "Rico".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico

[Nick Burrows]

Corbyn on Andrew Marr this morning:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02y2ffn

[David Robertson]

If Jeremy Corbyn wins, it could lead to a rare example of a political party jumping straight from the 2nd International into the 4th International

[Brian Towers]

If Jeremy Corbyn wins, it could lead to a rare example of a political party jumping straight from the 2nd International into the 4th International

Is that a "Clause 4" joke?

[David Robertson]

Is that a "Clause 4" joke?

It's very much an 'in' joke. It should sort out the mere dilettantes from those who've been deeply immersed in the grim historical minutiae in pursuit of the Workers' Paradise.

[Brian Towers]

Fairly typical mainstream Labour view in The Staggers

[Matt Mackenzie]

As with most NS articles these days, the courageous decision has been made not to allow comments I see

In actual fact, Creagh and her ilk are not "mainstream Labour" - they are on the extreme right of the party and that wing's preferred candidate in this contest would take the party so far to the right that there would basically be no reason for its continued existence.

At which point a viable leftist alternative *would* emerge, and Labour in England/Wales would go the same way Scottish Labour has done.

Thankfully said candidate is going to be utterly smashed and come a dismal fourth, hence the weeping and wailing such as the above

[NickFaulks]

I disagree with Corbyn on many issues, but I do like his willingness to give straight answers to straight questions. This is rare nowadays, Zak Goldsmith and of course Nigel Farage spring to mind. Is it coincidence that they are all Eurosceptic?