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 Post subject: 2011 AGM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:12 pm 
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The agenda and the first papers for the AGM are now on the MCCU website at
http://www.mccu.org.uk/

Follow the links from the MCCU home page to see the agenda and proposals about: electronic time controls; role of team captains; and a technical constitutional amendment.

If you have views about these proposals, please contact one of your county representatives to MCCU - see list on http://www.mccu.org.uk/about/counties.htm and ask the representative to raise your concerns.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 AGM
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:50 pm 
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Thanks very much for this Ray.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 AGM
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:35 pm 
The incremental time proposal makes no sense does it? I can't believe that this is what Dave Welch recommended. It's either a typo, or someone does not understand what they have written

It either needs to be either

x number of moves in y minutes with z seconds per move added plus w minutes to play to a finish

or

all moves in y minutes with z seconds per move added and no additional time control


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 AGM
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:23 pm 
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I think I made a point in another thread, and I've certainly spoken about it to Worcestershire delegates via e-mail.

My counter-proposal would be:

Open sections - 40 moves in 90 minutes + 30 minutes + 30 seconds/move from move 1, or 40 moves in 110 minutes + 30 minutes + 10 seconds/move from move 1
Other sections - 90 minutes + 30 seconds/move, or 110 minutes + 10 seconds/move.

The Opens would be 5-hour sessions, the others 4-hour sessions. The advantage of 30 seconds/move is you always record the moves. The advantage of 10 seconds/move is alleviation of the potential extension of the session by an hour.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 AGM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:41 am 
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Alex Holowczak wrote:
I think I made a point in another thread, and I've certainly spoken about it to Worcestershire delegates via e-mail.

My counter-proposal would be:

Open sections - 40 moves in 90 minutes + 30 minutes + 30 seconds/move from move 1, or 40 moves in 110 minutes + 30 minutes + 10 seconds/move from move 1
Other sections - 90 minutes + 30 seconds/move, or 110 minutes + 10 seconds/move.

The Opens would be 5-hour sessions, the others 4-hour sessions. The advantage of 30 seconds/move is you always record the moves. The advantage of 10 seconds/move is alleviation of the potential extension of the session by an hour.

You did indeed suggest these time limits in another thread, but (if I understood correctly) your previous comments were about the National Stages rather than about the MCCU Union Qualifying Stages.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 AGM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:56 am 
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David

As a non-MCCU person, do you have a view on the proposal on incremental time limits?

I'll be attending the MCCU AGM, so it would be useful to me

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 AGM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:09 am 
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David Sedgwick wrote:
You did indeed suggest these time limits in another thread, but (if I understood correctly) your previous comments were about the National Stages rather than about the MCCU Union Qualifying Stages.


David, this is that post. It's in the MCCU section of the Forum but the post itself doesn't make clear that it's MCCU-only.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 AGM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:10 am 
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Mick Norris wrote:
David

As a non-MCCU person, do you have a view on the proposal on incremental time limits?

I'll be attending the MCCU AGM, so it would be useful to me


I'll also be attendance as a Worcestershire delegate, and will be proposing the amendment to Cyril's proposal that I've written above.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 AGM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:35 am 
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Mick Norris wrote:
David

As a non-MCCU person, do you have a view on the proposal on incremental time limits?

I'll be attending the MCCU AGM, so it would be useful to me

As a non-MCCU person, I'm only commenting on the proposal as I've been specifically invited to do do.

As Sean and Alex have pointed out, the actual proposal on the agenda is nonsensical and there's obviously been a misunderstanding of some sort.

I'm also unclear whether it's envisaged that an incremental time limit will be standard in future (so the home team will have to supply DGTs) or will apply only when DGTs are available. I'll assume the latter. (NB Throughout this post I've used "DGT" to refer to any digital clock.)

We had a similar debate in the SCCU a couple of years ago. Our standard time limit is 35 moves/105 minutes + 30 minutes in all Divisions. This can be varied by mutual agreement, but in practice nobody ever did (or does).

When we were considering the use of incremental time limits with DGTs, I successfully argued to the SCCU Council that the time limit should have short increments and be as similar as possible to the standard one. There were two reasons for this. One was the problem of the very long game (mentioned by Alex). The other consideration was that some matches shouldn't be using radically different time limits from others; the games with incremental limits should "feel" similar to those with non-incremental ones except for the avoidance of the Law 10.2 situation at the end.

So we went for 35 moves/100 minutes + 20 minutes + 10 second increments. On the basis of our experience to date this seems to be working out okay.

I understand that in the MCCU you play 40 moves/120 minutes + 30 minutes in the Open Division and 36 moves/90 minutes + 30 minutes in the other Divisions. On that basis I would suggest that the incremental limits should be 40 moves/115 minutes + 20 minutes + 10 second increments and 36 moves/85 minutes + 20 minutes + 10 second increments respectively. You may prefer some minor variation (eg Alex's suggestion of 40 moves/110 minutes + 30 minutes + 10 second increments for the Open) but if it were my decision I would definitely go for the 10 second increments for the reasons I've stated.

In the SCCU we also decided that the incremental time control would only apply if sufficient DGTs were available for an entire match.

I hope that helps. I've pasted the relevant SCCU Rule below.


"20. Rates of Play

(a) Mechanical clocks
The rate of play will normally be 35 moves in 1¾ hours and then 30 minutes extra for each player for the remainder of the game. For any match, the captains may agree to vary the number of moves to the time control, the time allowed to the time control, and the length of the quickplay finish provided that:
(i) there is a quickplay finish; and
(ii) games remain eligible for Standard-Play grading.

(b) Digital Clocks
Where sufficient suitable clocks are available to enable an entire match to be played therewith, the rate of play unless otherwise agreed by the match captains will be be 35 moves in 1 hour and 40 minutes and then 20 minutes for each player for the remainder of the game, with an extra 10 seconds per move for each player added from the start. The captains may agree to vary the number of moves to the time control, the time allowed to the time control, the time added for the remainder of the game and the time added for each move, provided that games remain eligible for Standard-Play grading. They may also agree to play the match with time limits in accordance with (a) above."


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 AGM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:40 am 
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Alex Holowczak wrote:
David Sedgwick wrote:
You did indeed suggest these time limits in another thread, but (if I understood correctly) your previous comments were about the National Stages rather than about the MCCU Union Qualifying Stages.

David, this is that post. It's in the MCCU section of the Forum but the post itself doesn't make clear that it's MCCU-only.

Thanks. I hadn't seen that post (or indeed the thread).

I was thinking of a different post of yours and I stand corrected. My apologies.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 AGM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:46 am 
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Location: Harwood, Greater Manchester
David

Thanks for that

My proposal last year was along the lines of using incremental time controls only when digital clocks are available, and both sides agree i.e. you have to give the opposition notice

I actually proposed we copy the SCCU rule exactly (as we had used this successfully in the G Man v Essex Open prelim a few weeks before last year's meeting), although suggested (as with the "normal" time limits you correctly quote) that the captains can vary if they agree (we varied against Warks when our team was held up on the M6)

G Man now have digital clocks and have used them, albeit not with incremental time controls

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 AGM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:52 am 
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David Sedgwick wrote:
I understand that in the MCCU you play 40 moves/120 minutes + 30 minutes in the Open Division and 36 moves/90 minutes + 30 minutes in the other Divisions. On that basis I would suggest that the incremental limits should be 40 moves/115 minutes + 20 minutes + 10 second increments and 36 moves/85 minutes + 20 minutes + 10 second increments respectively. You may prefer some minor variation (eg Alex's suggestion of 40 moves/110 minutes + 30 minutes + 10 second increments for the Open) but if it were my decision I would definitely go for the 10 second increments for the reasons I've stated.


The only problem I have with these proposals is that it makes the first time period in both longer than 3 minutes per move.

The other point is that in the Open sections, a 60-move game length of 4 hours 50 minutes, so it's actually shorter than 5 hours. Similarly for the other sections, the expected 60-move game length would be 3 hours 50 minutes, which is short of 4 hours.

The problem with this is MCCU rule 6: The duration of play in the Championship shall be not less than five hours and all games shall be played with clocks. ... In the remaining grade restricted tournaments the duration of play shall be not less than four hours ...

We're changing rule 6 anyway if we're adding new time controls to it, but if we adopted David's suggestion, we'd have to amend those sentences too.

David Sedgwick wrote:
In the SCCU we also decided that the incremental time control would only apply if sufficient DGTs were available for an entire match.


I think this is something the MCCU should do, and the SCCU rule regarding when to use them sounds good to me. I think if you have 16 digitals, you should use the incremental time control, otherwise you use the non-incremental time control.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 AGM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:04 am 
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I'm going to take a digital clock with me too, in case anyone wants to play around with it and try programming the proposed time controls.

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 Post subject: Re: 2011 AGM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:18 am 
I would suggest for the Open

40 moves in 120 mins + 20 mins + 10 secs

and graded sections

40 moves in 90 mins + 20 mins + 10 secs

I think it has to be all or nothing, match wise. You can't have some games using incremental time controls and some not.

I would also suggest that where the home team can provide digtal clocks and wants to use incremental time controls, then they should be used, regardless of any objection of the away side. This means that whether you prefer incremental or non-incremental time controls you get what you prefer at least half of the time (and three quarters of the time if half the sides use increments and half don't).


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 AGM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:09 am 
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David Sedgwick wrote:

So we went for 35 moves/100 minutes + 20 minutes + 10 second increments. On the basis of our experience to date this seems to be working out okay.



Did you ever resolve whether
(a) you add the extra 20 minutes when the clock has counted 35
or
(b) you add the extra 20 minutes the first time one of the clocks hits zero?


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