County teams 2013-4

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Ian Jamieson
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Re: County teams 2013-4

Postby Ian Jamieson » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:29 pm

Mick,

That may have been true in the past and by custom but I can't see anything in the rules on the ECF website to prevent a union running a qualifying competition specifically for its Minor Counties nominations and getting another nomination.

Mick Norris
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Re: County teams 2013-4

Postby Mick Norris » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:47 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:Alex, I agree with that, but the MCCU have 2 places automatically for the Open regardless of the qualifying competition, whereas the third place used to depend on having a qualifying competition


That's not quite right.

The MCCU runs its Division 1 and Division 2 to Open rules, meaning that in 2012/13, we had a total of 7 Open teams. You need 5 teams to finish the qualifiers played to Open rules in order to qualify for an Open M3.

Even with 1 team in Division 1 and 6 teams in Division 2, the MCCU is entitled to 3 nominations in the Open and 2 in the Minor.

The MCCU chooses how to make these nominations. It chooses to use Division 1 as its Open qualifier, and Division 2 as its Minor qualifier. It could choose to do something different.


Alex

With your ECF controller's hat on, as it were, how could the MCCU manage to get a third qualifier for the Minor Counties (MC)? I think this needs 5 or more teams completing their fixtures, which I assume will be the case

Could the MCCU just say that Div 2 is a qualifier for the MC?

Or, would Div 2 actually have to be run under MC rules e.g. U180 average in the teams?

Regards
Mick
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Alex Holowczak
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Re: County teams 2013-4

Postby Alex Holowczak » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:13 am

Mick Norris wrote:Alex

With your ECF controller's hat on, as it were, how could the MCCU manage to get a third qualifier for the Minor Counties (MC)? I think this needs 5 or more teams completing their fixtures, which I assume will be the case

Could the MCCU just say that Div 2 is a qualifier for the MC?

Or, would Div 2 actually have to be run under MC rules e.g. U180 average in the teams?

Regards
Mick


The provision that there were only ever 2 nominations for the Minor, fullstop, was removed in the redrafting. This was an accident, but oh well...

Various Unions run qualifiers that aren't run according to the rules for the section they qualify them for. For example, in EACU, the last-placed Open team earns a nomination to the Under 180. I don't see why the MCCU would have to run its Minor qualifier to Minor rules.

So long as the MCCU tells me it is treating its Open Division 2 as a Minor Qualifier, I don't have a problem with them asking for 3 nominations. Of course, this assumes compliance with the rules about having at least 5 counties in the competition playing all their qualifying matches.

David Pardoe
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Re: County teams 2013-4

Postby David Pardoe » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:11 pm

Which didnt happen this season, due to Derbyshire defaulting there final match..
But, I`d like to see any available `spare` places offered out to counties who are prepared to put out teams in the Finals stages, if there are `spare` qualifying places available.
ie, If Staffs qualify `automatically` next year for the `Open` section, due to lack of any opposition, it might be worth at least asking other counties if anyone would like to take the other available place in the `Open` section...
It might be that one or two counties might consider taking up the challenge, and enter...it might in turn encourage (some of the stronger) players to put in an appearance for this stage. ie,those perhaps not otherwise motivated/available to make an appearance in earlier stages.
That would be good, if so.....
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LawrenceCooper
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Re: County teams 2013-4

Postby LawrenceCooper » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:20 pm

An alternative question is could Staffordshire drop into the other group and still have the option of qualifying for the open section?

Mick Norris
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Re: County teams 2013-4

Postby Mick Norris » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:53 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:An alternative question is could Staffordshire drop into the other group and still have the option of qualifying for the open section?


I think the answer to that may be yes, given that the MCCU will have 2 open places available, and there doesn't appear any reason why not

However, if we are to try and change Div 2 to be a Minor Counties qualifier to try and get more than 2 nominations for the Minor Counties at ECF National stages, then we might run into difficulties if Staffs are in there too

I'm sorry if the decisions have left Staffs with no MCCU teams to play against - any chance of friendlies against suitable other counties, or even a North v South Staffs match?
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Mick Norris
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Re: County teams 2013-4

Postby Mick Norris » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:58 pm

David Pardoe wrote:Which didnt happen this season, due to Derbyshire defaulting there final match..


True, but they qualified for the national stages anyway, and it may have been weather related

With Warks in Div 2, there are potentially 6 teams, so a better chance of 5 playing every match
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MartinCarpenter
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Re: County teams 2013-4

Postby MartinCarpenter » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:19 pm

They could always send their open team to play in the NCCU ;)
(Actually while wildly impractical, it isn't an objectively absurd idea.).

Alex Holowczak
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Re: County teams 2013-4

Postby Alex Holowczak » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:28 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
LawrenceCooper wrote:An alternative question is could Staffordshire drop into the other group and still have the option of qualifying for the open section?


I think the answer to that may be yes, given that the MCCU will have 2 open places available, and there doesn't appear any reason why not

However, if we are to try and change Div 2 to be a Minor Counties qualifier to try and get more than 2 nominations for the Minor Counties at ECF National stages, then we might run into difficulties if Staffs are in there too


What the MCCU could do is:
(1) Run two sections; and Open and a Minor - the Minor being run to Minor rules (in practice, I think every county will be under the 180 restriction anyway based on recent teams that have been fielded, apart maybe from Staffs?)
(2) Staffordshire enters both the Open and the Minor sections
(3) Staffordshire accepts the nomination from the Open
(4) Staffordshire declines the nomination from the Minor (should it earn one), allowing the MCCU to still give other counties its three nominations

Steve Rooney
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Re: County teams 2013-4

Postby Steve Rooney » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:30 pm

It doesn't help at all, but just to report that Shropshire's AGM last week confirmed the current position on county teams, ie just running an U140 and continuing the absence of an Open/Minor team.

(There is some interest however in entering a possible Shropshire-based 4NCL team and views are being canvassed on that at the moment. Also on the positive side, but nothing to do with county teams, we are looking at a possible rapidplay league to run alongside the regular longish-play league next season.)

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Re: County teams 2013-4

Postby David Pardoe » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:17 pm

Its disappointing that more of our teams do not rise to the occasion and join in the Open section.
Shropshire, in my view, should at least have a crack at the Minor counties section.
Those teams who think that they have better chances in the Minor counties are perhaps deluding themselves, I feel, to some extent. ie, some pretty strong sides win the Minor counties..but the challenge is the real driver...
Persuading enough of our `senior` players to put in an appearance or two, is the crux of the matter..
Finding an energetic captain who can proactively scout for players and encourage players to join the party is critical to success. Every county team should also have an active deputy/vice Captain, to assist with team selection and general organisation...its absolutely a two man job. Lots to do...its not like being captain of a club team.
Counties like Warks, Notts, Leic, & Gman should give this a shot...ie, the Open section. Or maybe support the U180 event (a Shropshire/Leic option perhaps..).
This would give our rising stars some valuable experience, and if more of our `senior players` could muster some support, we might get some progress.
Greater participation engenders greater support, engenders rising interest, engenders rising standards... and maybe top dogs at some point.
As for a Shropshire team in 4NCL...Brilliant idea..!!! please please consider entering the Northern section...venues are good, several north west teams...good competition. Speak to Matthew Pollard regarding the running of teams and team setup/finance , etc ..or even Roger Edwards from Stoke.....Cheddleton.
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Steve Rooney
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Re: County teams 2013-4

Postby Steve Rooney » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:57 pm

David Pardoe wrote:Its disappointing that more of our teams do not rise to the occasion and join in the Open section.
Shropshire, in my view, should at least have a crack at the Minor counties section.
Those teams who think that they have better chances in the Minor counties are perhaps deluding themselves, I feel, to some extent. ie, some pretty strong sides win the Minor counties..but the challenge is the real driver...
Persuading enough of our `senior` players to put in an appearance or two, is the crux of the matter..
Finding an energetic captain who can proactively scout for players and encourage players to join the party is critical to success. Every county team should also have an active deputy/vice Captain, to assist with team selection and general organisation...its absolutely a two man job. Lots to do...its not like being captain of a club team.
Counties like Warks, Notts, Leic, & Gman should give this a shot...ie, the Open section. Or maybe support the U180 event (a Shropshire/Leic option perhaps..).
This would give our rising stars some valuable experience, and if more of our `senior players` could muster some support, we might get some progress.
Greater participation engenders greater support, engenders rising interest, engenders rising standards... and maybe top dogs at some point.
As for a Shropshire team in 4NCL...Brilliant idea..!!! please please consider entering the Northern section...venues are good, several north west teams...good competition. Speak to Matthew Pollard regarding the running of teams and team setup/finance , etc ..or even Roger Edwards from Stoke.....Cheddleton.



David, it's all very well urging people to 'have a crack', but there simply isn't enthusiasm for an Open or Minor team. The last couple of Shropshire captains have had a real struggle putting out a team and would have ended up borrowing from our under 140 side which would not have been helpful to the latter's victorious campaign this year!

The northern option for 4NCL has been mentioned, but while the venues sound impressive, the travelling may be easier to the midlands and south, but I will pass on the idea to those who are leading on this.

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Re: County teams 2013-4

Postby Mick Norris » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:35 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:What the MCCU could do is:
(1) Run two sections; and Open and a Minor - the Minor being run to Minor rules (in practice, I think every county will be under the 180 restriction anyway based on recent teams that have been fielded, apart maybe from Staffs?)
(2) Staffordshire enters both the Open and the Minor sections
(3) Staffordshire accepts the nomination from the Open
(4) Staffordshire declines the nomination from the Minor (should it earn one), allowing the MCCU to still give other counties its three nominations


Are the existing Rules a problem?

MCCU COUNTY TEAMS TOURNAMENT RULES 2012-14 Seasons wrote: The Championship section shall be arranged in 2 divisions upper (Open) and lower (Minor). County Open teams may apply to enter either section.
The winners of the upper division shall be awarded the title of MCCU Champions. The winners of the lower division shall be awarded the title of MCCU Minor Champions.
For the purposes of qualification for the ECF National County Championship the winners and runners up in the upper division shall be nominated for the Open sections, and if a 3rd place is available the 3rd placed team in the upper division shall also be nominated.

For the purposes of the ECF Minor Championships, the winners and runners up in the lower division shall be nominated.
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Alex Holowczak
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Re: County teams 2013-4

Postby Alex Holowczak » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:02 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:What the MCCU could do is:
(1) Run two sections; and Open and a Minor - the Minor being run to Minor rules (in practice, I think every county will be under the 180 restriction anyway based on recent teams that have been fielded, apart maybe from Staffs?)
(2) Staffordshire enters both the Open and the Minor sections
(3) Staffordshire accepts the nomination from the Open
(4) Staffordshire declines the nomination from the Minor (should it earn one), allowing the MCCU to still give other counties its three nominations


Are the existing Rules a problem?

MCCU COUNTY TEAMS TOURNAMENT RULES 2012-14 Seasons wrote: The Championship section shall be arranged in 2 divisions upper (Open) and lower (Minor). County Open teams may apply to enter either section.
The winners of the upper division shall be awarded the title of MCCU Champions. The winners of the lower division shall be awarded the title of MCCU Minor Champions.
For the purposes of qualification for the ECF National County Championship the winners and runners up in the upper division shall be nominated for the Open sections, and if a 3rd place is available the 3rd placed team in the upper division shall also be nominated.

For the purposes of the ECF Minor Championships, the winners and runners up in the lower division shall be nominated.


Yes. You'd need to rewrite them to account for the possibility of allowing 3 teams into the Minor, for one thing. Another issue would be letting a county enter both divisions. I'm sure the ECF could overlook the MCCU breaking its own rules in that regard.

The MCCU should probably be a bit more explicit about the 180 average restriction too.

David Pardoe
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Re: County teams 2013-4

Postby David Pardoe » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:35 pm

Steve Rooney wrote:It doesn't help at all, but just to report that Shropshire's AGM last week confirmed the current position on county teams, ie just running an U140 and continuing the absence of an Open/Minor team.

(There is some interest however in entering a possible Shropshire-based 4NCL team and views are being canvassed on that at the moment. Also on the positive side, but nothing to do with county teams, we are looking at a possible rapidplay league to run alongside the regular longish-play league next season.)


Hi Steve,
Yes, I know that recruiting players is a challenge for many counties...thats why I suggest two joint captains.
In Shropshires case, being a large county, I`d probably aim for one from Shrewsbury area, and probably a second from Bridgenorth area.
My comment about `having a shot` wasnt particularly aimed at Shropshire....but many captains dont really search very deeply for potential players. For instance, when I worked in Telford some years ago, I was never asked, even though the Shropshire captain worked in the same offices. You could probably recruit from the Wolverhamton league, maybe the Stoke league, and possibly from south Cheshire clubs, apart from areas in Shropshire, and the Welsh borders...plus any major colleges/universities, etc....
By using the web it is possible to find all sorts of possible contacts, including congress organisors. Anyway..its worth a thought....but key ingredient is an enthusiastic captain, who can make contact with clubs, leagues and players across the region.
As regards 4NCL, yes, travel would be an issue for the Darlington venue...its 3.5 hours from Telford, which would be an early start on the Saturday morning. Its probably the equivalent of a trip to the Scarborough Congress, for those Shropshire players who go there. But the other two venues at Macclesfield and Buxton are not bad locations.
The five trips to Daventry, if you joined the `4NCL south section` would average about 1.5 hours from Telford area, so fairly routine trips.
Good luck with whatever you decide....
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