2010 Grading list

General discussions about ratings.
Neill Cooper
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Re: 2010 Grading list

Post by Neill Cooper » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:42 am

Sean Hewitt wrote: There are 697 junior players who had a standard play grade in 2009 and 2010 (I was staggered by how few players in this category there were). The changes in those players grades ranged from a drop of 30 points to a gain of 65 points. This is almost the same as the adults The mean average change was an increase of 7.8, and the median change was an increase of 6. 35 players lost more than 10 grading points, playing an average of 16 games (5.0%). 263 players gained more than 10 grading points (37.7%), playing an average of 34 games.
My concerns over junior grades were based on individual perverse grades not means. It will be interesting to see which juniors have had their grades fall by more than 10 points. In the January rapidplay grade list various improving juniors I know fell by over 15 points. Also, I know lots of juniors who play between 5 and 15 games a season, only against other juniors, who might well have unusual changes as they are being treated as new players each year. They are the ones where I am concerned about, not the top juniors who play in leading adult tournaments. My suggestion was that only those who play over 20 or 30 games a season should have their grade reset.

Junior grades are sufficiently unreliable that the ECF Chief Arbiter thought it acceptable for a team in the Final of the National School tournament to play a 138 on board 3 and a 169 on board 6. http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/schoolsres.htm

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Adam Raoof
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Re: 2010 Grading list

Post by Adam Raoof » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:01 am

Neill Cooper wrote:Junior grades are sufficiently unreliable that the ECF Chief Arbiter thought it acceptable for a team in the Final of the National School tournament to play a 138 on board 3 and a 169 on board 6. http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/schoolsres.htm
I would like to know a) whether there are rules about team order in the National Schools tournament, and b) on what basis this was permitted. The Middlesex League AGM recently passed my amendment to oblige teams to field their players in order of ECF grade, and I don't see any reason to vary from that in this case.
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David Sedgwick
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Re: 2010 Grading list

Post by David Sedgwick » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:23 am

Adam Raoof wrote:
Neill Cooper wrote:Junior grades are sufficiently unreliable that the ECF Chief Arbiter thought it acceptable for a team in the Final of the National School tournament to play a 138 on board 3 and a 169 on board 6. http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/schoolsres.htm
I would like to know a) whether there are rules about team order in the National Schools tournament, and b) on what basis this was permitted. The Middlesex League AGM recently passed my amendment to oblige teams to field their players in order of ECF grade, and I don't see any reason to vary from that in this case.
From time to time people get taken to task on this Forum for expecting other people to look up things that they could look up for themselves. In the case of ECF Directors, I suppose we have to forgive them.

I too was interested in the answer to your questions, so I looked up the Rules at http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/schrul.htm. I quote the following therefrom:

"Before the start of play match captains will exchange team lists, arranged in descending order of known current playing strength."

I think it would be ridiculous to require junior teams to play in the order of ECF grades which in this instance would have been more than a year out of date. Even with twice-yearly lists, they would still have been seven months out of date.

As to whether the actual board order was or was not reasonable, I think we should await the publication of the new list before passing judgment.

Richard Bates
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Re: 2010 Grading list

Post by Richard Bates » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:06 am

Adam Raoof wrote:
Neill Cooper wrote:Junior grades are sufficiently unreliable that the ECF Chief Arbiter thought it acceptable for a team in the Final of the National School tournament to play a 138 on board 3 and a 169 on board 6. http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/schoolsres.htm
I would like to know a) whether there are rules about team order in the National Schools tournament, and b) on what basis this was permitted. The Middlesex League AGM recently passed my amendment to oblige teams to field their players in order of ECF grade, and I don't see any reason to vary from that in this case.
Without any margin of tolerance?

BTW does anyone ever take any notice of the difference in grading categories (A to E) when determining reliability? Because statistically an A grade is a very different thing to an E grade, and any requirement to use grades as a proxy for playing strength (as opposed to simply being a pairing tool) should take that into account. Even for two "A" grades there is natural statistical variance which would result in a "consistent strength" player's grade having a potential range within confidence intervals of around 10 points. So players of up to 10pts apart could in any given year be ranked incorrectly relative to each other. Historic trends for established players give a more complete picture.

More generally if leagues are going to insist on ultra-rigid rules then it increases the case for an "interim" half-yearly list to provide flexibility (provided all results are included).

Neill Cooper
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Re: 2010 Grading list

Post by Neill Cooper » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:37 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Neill Cooper wrote:Junior grades are sufficiently unreliable that the ECF Chief Arbiter thought it acceptable for a team in the Final of the National School tournament to play a 138 on board 3 and a 169 on board 6. http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/schoolsres.htm
I would like to know a) whether there are rules about team order in the National Schools tournament, and b) on what basis this was permitted.
The answer to (b) that I heard was based on the about to be published grades.

Michele Clack
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Re: 2010 Grading list

Post by Michele Clack » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:47 pm

Carl said about the new list
I am expecting it to be Saturday, 24th
I've just realised that that is the date of the Worcestershire Open. Does that mean that you decided against playing in that?

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: 2010 Grading list

Post by Carl Hibbard » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:16 pm

michele clack wrote:Carl said about the new list
I am expecting it to be Saturday, 24th
I've just realised that that is the date of the Worcestershire Open. Does that mean that you decided against playing in that?
Yes, I don't really play chess now and am not missing it to be honest - haven't played a proper season in several years
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Mike Truran
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Re: 2010 Grading list

Post by Mike Truran » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:47 pm

Indeed. As we all find out in the end, administration is just so much more exciting.

Mike Truran
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Re: 2010 Grading list

Post by Mike Truran » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:48 pm

Why did I post this twice?

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: 2010 Grading list

Post by Carl Hibbard » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:21 pm

Mike Truran wrote:Why did I post this twice?
Over excited?
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Carl Hibbard

David Gilbert
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Re: 2010 Grading list

Post by David Gilbert » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:10 pm

So Carl what's your advice? Is it worth staying up after 12 midnight, clicking on refresh every 10 seconds, or should I go to bed and get up early.....or just stay up late tomorrow, or simply wait until I get to Canterbury on Sunday? It's worse than waiting for the Honours List....which is regularly spoilt by missing my name off! Are we there yet?

Alex Holowczak
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Re: 2010 Grading list

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:30 pm

Perhaps in future, the ECF needs to arrange a Grade Release Ceremony? Invite an audience of chess-players and pay popular music acts to perform. Then at the climax, release the grading lists into the public domain with the President formally unwrapping and opening his copy of the printed grading book.

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: 2010 Grading list

Post by Carl Hibbard » Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:05 pm

David Gilbert wrote:So Carl what's your advice? Is it worth staying up after 12 midnight, clicking on refresh every 10 seconds, or should I go to bed and get up early.....or just stay up late tomorrow, or simply wait until I get to Canterbury on Sunday? It's worse than waiting for the Honours List....which is regularly spoilt by missing my name off! Are we there yet?
Neither...

I have the database now but have only just got back home to process it :o
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

MSoszynski
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Re: 2010 Grading list

Post by MSoszynski » Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:46 pm

Carl Hibbard wrote:
David Gilbert wrote:So Carl what's your advice? Is it worth staying up after 12 midnight, clicking on refresh every 10 seconds, or should I go to bed and get up early.....or just stay up late tomorrow, or simply wait until I get to Canterbury on Sunday? It's worse than waiting for the Honours List....which is regularly spoilt by missing my name off! Are we there yet?
Neither...

I have the database now but have only just got back home to process it :o
You've had about 40 (forty) minutes now. What's the hold up?

I'm joking. Give me those ten points back.

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: 2010 Grading list

Post by Carl Hibbard » Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:39 pm

MSoszynski wrote:
Carl Hibbard wrote:
David Gilbert wrote:So Carl what's your advice? Is it worth staying up after 12 midnight, clicking on refresh every 10 seconds, or should I go to bed and get up early.....or just stay up late tomorrow, or simply wait until I get to Canterbury on Sunday? It's worse than waiting for the Honours List....which is regularly spoilt by missing my name off! Are we there yet?
Neither...

I have the database now but have only just got back home to process it :o
You've had about 40 (forty) minutes now. What's the hold up?

I'm joking. Give me those ten points back.
An un-official 167 up from 153?
Cheers
Carl Hibbard