Calculating ECF grading changes from international results

[Christopher Kreuzer]

I'm hoping some of those reading this forum will be able to help answer a question I have (which I don't really want to bother the ECF grading people with just yet, though if any are posting here and want to comment, that would be great). It concerns results from an event I played abroad in June 2010, the results of which are here:

http://chess-results.com/tnr34970.aspx? ... r=16&lan=1

I've played in events like this for the past few years and usually (I think because I am an ECF Direct Member and I try and make sure the submission of results gets done) the results eventually get fed back to the ECF grading people and get included in my ECF grading calculation (it has certainly appeared on some of the printouts I received, but usually as a single block calculation). Like the British, the events tend to take place over the summer and if submitted they count for the following season's grading list. What I'm trying to do is very roughly estimate what the likely effect on my ECF grade would be for the results from the June 2010 event.

In trying to work this out, it doesn't help that I played two players without FIDE ratings (rounds 6 and 7), there was a walkover in round 2 (so it is 6 games, not 7), and I played three players with FIDE ratings (rounds 1, 8 and 9). My opponent from round 3, according to the FIDE September 2010 rating list, doesn't have the 2229 FIDE rating listed at chess-results.com, but now seems to have a part rating of 2177 from that event if that helps in estimating anything. One of my opponents (round 7) is from Scotland and had an ECF rating in July 2009 of 137, but no rating in the July 2010 list, so that probably simplifies things somewhat (I wonder what would happen if you play someone with an ECF rating during an international event abroad and only one player submitted the result for grading when they got home, and the other player didn't - does it still get graded for both players?). I presume all six players are considered ungraded for ECF purposes, and the grading performance for ECF purposes is calculated from the overall tournament results, but I've never been clear how this is done.

As an aside, on reflection, I'm not quite sure why this ECF grading of international results is done or if it is in fact helpful. As far as I can tell, it is purely voluntary and you have to be a Direct Member to get this service, and could presumably pick and chose which results from international events to submit. As an example, one of the tournament results from a previous year (from June 2009, intended for the July 2010 ECF list) never made it to the right person or got lost somewhere. As the result was poor (1/6 against generally higher rated opposition) and would probably only have affected my July 2010 grade by 2 points (157 instead of 159), I haven't bothered to follow it up (probably too late now anyway). But it raised a general question in my mind about whether such submission of international results for consideration for ECF grading is usually only done on an individual basis, when it will increase the grade of the person submitting the results, or whether it is done on a more consistent basis?

I suppose if you play most of your chess abroad, rather than the occasional tournaments, it can be useful to submit such results to prevent your grade disappearing due to inactivity (I wonder how much it counts towards the number of games played?), and it helps build up a more accurate picture of an individual's grade, but I'm sure there are disadvantages as well. I've seen others on this forum mention that they've submitted results from events played abroad for ECF grading. Maybe they can shed some light on the whole process and what the reasons are for doing it and how common it is?

[Christopher Kreuzer]

I've been rummaging through previous forum posts, trying to find posts relevant to this, and am going to post them below. If others know of similar posts, it would be appreciated if they could link to them and I'll add them to the list.

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 2891#p2891
http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 27&start=0

[John Upham]

I've been rummaging through previous forum posts, trying to find posts relevant to this, and am going to post them below. If others know of similar posts, it would be appreciated if they could link to them and I'll add them to the list.

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 2891#p2891
http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 27&start=0

Would a list of Franz Liszt lists include itself

[Christopher Kreuzer]

I've been rummaging through previous forum posts, trying to find posts relevant to this, and am going to post them below. If others know of similar posts, it would be appreciated if they could link to them and I'll add them to the list.

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 2891#p2891
http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 27&start=0

Would a list of Franz Liszt lists include itself

No.

But if you insist...

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2260

Don't get lost in the circular logic.

[If anyone does have an answer to how "foreign results" are graded for ECF purposes, I would be very grateful - for now, I've assumed that those with FIDE grades can be converted to ECF grades using the usual formula, though I probably used the wrong one, and as I got 50% against the three ungraded players, I fudged it and assumed I performed at my grading level against them. Some of those who founded grading systems would no doubt be turning in their graves, but it's good enough for my purposes anyway, and I suspect any errors will be lost under the weight of other results from this season.]

[Roger de Coverly]

[If anyone does have an answer to how "foreign results" are graded for ECF purposes, I would be very grateful - for now, I've assumed that those with FIDE grades can be converted to ECF grades using the usual formula, though I probably used the wrong one, ]

You are familiar with the submission form? This asks you to list opponents with (a) their ECF grade if they have one, (b) their international ELO if they have one, (c) their domestic Elo rating. If a player didn't have a domestic Elo, you could presumably use the tournament controllers' estimate used for pairing purposes. I think the order of use is (a) then (b) converted then (c) converted.

As to what conversion formula is used, this is in the gift of the International Rating Officer. It's probably (elo-650)/8 for international, (elo-600)/8 for domestic elo and possibly (elo-700)/8 for USCF. For all I know there might be a variable conversion tariff for commonly used national systems ( Irish, Welsh, Scots, French, Dutch, German)

Details of Opponent
Fill in columns 1 and 2. Plus 3 & 4 for opponents with ECF grades, 5 or 6 (not both) for others.
Note that an ECF grades will be used in preference to a FIDE or other Elo rating and a FIDE rating will be used in preference to an other Elo rating.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

[If anyone does have an answer to how "foreign results" are graded for ECF purposes, I would be very grateful - for now, I've assumed that those with FIDE grades can be converted to ECF grades using the usual formula, though I probably used the wrong one, ]

You are familiar with the submission form?

<snip details, thanks for those>

I'm not familiar with the submission form, as the organisations I play for submit that on my behalf, which is why I'm not always clear if this grading of "foreign results" is part of my ECF membership benefit, or something else. On reflection, I now suspects it accrues as part of the ability of member organisations to submit results through their grading officers, including results from abroad. A good example would be if those clubs from the 4NCL who qualified to play in the European Club Championship (or whatever it is called) decided to submit the results of their members who played in that tournament for ECF grading. So I might be confusing the right that ECF Direct Members have to submit such results, with the right that Member Organisations have to submit such results.

I doubt that makes things much clearer, but it might help identify what might have been a misunderstanding on my part.

[Roger de Coverly]

So I might be confusing the right that ECF Direct Members have to submit such results, with the right that Member Organisations have to submit such results.

News to me that Member Organisations have any such rights for events outside the UK. Still it might be possible or agreed on a case by case basis for international team events.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

So I might be confusing the right that ECF Direct Members have to submit such results, with the right that Member Organisations have to submit such results.

News to me that Member Organisations have any such rights for events outside the UK. Still it might be possible or agreed on a case by case basis for international team events.

I am speculating that such a right exists. Maybe the organisation (in my case, the EDCA) can submit on behalf of its members who (almost certainly) will be ECF members anyway. All the events, except two, that I've played in, have been team events. The other two were the World Open and World Individual Championships (both run by the ICSC, the International Committee for Silent Chess). The ICSC, incidentally, as well as the IBCA and ICPA, had a team in the Olympiad, which is not germane to this thread, but I felt like mentioning it as I saw reference in some ECF document somewhere that England have the national equivalents of the ICSC and the ICBA, but not the ICPA. And there, I've now got my own back on those who use initialisms without explaining what they mean!

EDIT: Ooops! I meant the IBCA and the IPCA of course!