What grade is scratch?

[Paul McKeown]

I once had to explain the grading system to a golf player. I suggested that 200 was "scratch". Would that be about right?

[Paul Cooksey]

I understand scratch as being an amateur playing close to professional standard, so a bit low I think. 220?

[Paul McKeown]

So 200 would be playing off 3 or so? 180 playing off 6? 160 playing off 10?

[Paul Cooksey]

So 200 would be playing off 3 or so? 180 playing off 6? 160 playing off 10?

Google tells me average handicap is a little over 15, and average grade a little under 140. So yes, that seems a consistent curve.

[Paul Cooksey]

Since we are passing, one of the reasons I think golf is popular is that the handicap system allows players of different standards to play together and still enjoy the game equally.

I don't think we can do it in chess, it is a pity.

[Paul McKeown]

Any golf playing chess players want to comment?

[Paul McKeown]

Since we are passing, one of the reasons I think golf is popular is that the handicap system allows players of different standards to play together and still enjoy the game equally.

I don't think we can do it in chess, it is a pity.

That's what they do in Go, they spot a number of stones, but Go is unhumanly difficult.

Of course in chess, you can handicap based on expectation, then play 20 blitz games, something like that.

Talking of Go - what about the Oriental Martial Arts? What's the equivalent of a Black Belt or Shodan? Would that be 140 or would it be much more?

[Justin Hadi]

I've heard 1 dan in go - the first level of professional, is equivalent to 2100 so less of a high standard than in the chess comparison to golf.
Maybe that's because go is so massively popular in Korea, Japan and China - you need to be less good to be a pro.

[Paul McKeown]

I've heard 1 dan in go - the first level of professional is equivalent to 2100, so less of a high standard than in the chess comparison to golf.

Yes, but also bear in mind that the Go ratings go up to close to 3000, a bit more than chess. Perhaps as you say, a bigger playing base? In judo, though, I understood that a Black Belt was much lower than 2100. I could well be wrong, though.

[Justin Hadi]

I meant 2100 FIDE chess is about the same as 1 dan in go, though. Martial arts, I'm not sure, but there seem to be awful lot of black belts!

[Paul McKeown]

Martial arts, I'm not sure, but there seem to be awful lot of black belts!

Yeah, seems like that to me, too.

My (uneducated) guess is that shodan = 140, nidan = 160, up to 10th dan being 280.

[Justin Hadi]

So 200 would be playing off 3 or so? 180 playing off 6? 160 playing off 10?

Flying off completely at a tangent, this puts a different spin on the British Championships. Why are 160 players playing in the main event, or handicap 10?
If the money is there it would be much better to have a ten player all play all as suggested elsewhere and then a massive open below it. Give the winner
of the open a place in next years round robin.

If the money isn't there, the current system is probably the best worst option.

[Michele Clack]

When you play golf you are playing against the course and indirectly against your opponent (in matchplay) or against the field in any other competition. In chess you are playing directly against your opponent. Golf gives you a handicap so in theory a player can still win even if they are playing a much better player(s).

I suppose you could give handicaps in Chess by removing pieces from the better player. It would take a lot of trial and error to work out how many pieces to remove. Interesting though. At what grade would a pawn be enough against a 220 player for instance?

[Paul Cooksey]

As an average golfer (Handicap 15) I dont think the curve expressed below is accurate.
Professional golfers will have a handicap of about -6 so this eqautes to approx 230 +
Our leading club amateur player has a handicap of -1 but he plays on the third division tour (Golf Speak) I.e. Div 3 4NCL
A scratch golfer has no possibility of earning a living as a professional.

Therefore I would equate 180 chess standard = scratch golfer and work from there.

Thanks for commenting Bob. I guess, like Paul Mc, I know a lot of golfers so I am finding this interesting.

My feeling is that you need to be 2600 to make a living playing chess, which is 250ish. So maybe this converts to -6?

I'm a bit reluctant to equate 4NCL Division 3 to the lowest rung of professional golf. Of course these people might win something occasionally, but for people who have a realistic hope of winning regulalrly, I'd say 4NCL Division 1. So much higher than 180 I think.

[Roger de Coverly]

On another point Golf is the only game I know where the handicapping system allows all players to compete without spoiling the game.

If you didn't handicap, what does the expected winning score look like for a handicap of 1? In ECF grading terms a difference of 5 would give an expected score over 10 games/matches of 5.5 to 4.5. So if handicaps can be related to expected scores, you can at least get the relative if not absolute measures.