January 2012 grading list

General discussions about ratings.
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John Upham
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Re: January 2012 grading list

Post by John Upham » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:41 pm

I hope you can forgive me for using the photograph here: http://www.britishchessmagazine.co.uk/?p=2868

and the fanciful caption. :D
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: January 2012 grading list

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:34 pm

John Upham wrote:I hope you can forgive me for using the photograph here: http://www.britishchessmagazine.co.uk/?p=2868

and the fanciful caption. :D
That's nice.

Minor quibble, when you say "The highest grade on the system is that of Vasyl Ivanchuk (UKR) who with 10 graded games has just fallen short of breaking the 300 barrier at 296". The present tense is wrong there. That grade was already in the July 2011 list, and was due to his performance in Gibraltar 2011:

http://www.ecfgrading.org.uk/?ref=28460 ... 1900871021

If the games from this year's Gibraltar tournament are rated (as they should be) the grade will change in the next list, and will also avoid him losing that grade due to inactivity. Not that he likely cares much about it. :D

Richard Bates
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Re: January 2012 grading list

Post by Richard Bates » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:52 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
If the games from this year's Gibraltar tournament are rated (as they should be) the grade will change in the next list, and will also avoid him losing that grade due to inactivity. Not that he likely cares much about it. :D
Ivanchuk isn't playing at this year's Gibraltar.

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Re: January 2012 grading list

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:53 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Minor quibble, when you say "The highest grade on the system is that of Vasyl Ivanchuk (UKR) who with 10 graded games has just fallen short of breaking the 300 barrier at 296". The present tense is wrong there. That grade was already in the July 2011 list, and was due to his performance in Gibraltar 2011:

...

If the games from this year's Gibraltar tournament are rated (as they should be) the grade will change in the next list, and will also avoid him losing that grade due to inactivity. Not that he likely cares much about it. :D
I would suggest that playing simultaneously in Wijk aan Zee and Gibraltar is too much, even for a player of his standard. :)

Paul Cooksey

Re: January 2012 grading list

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:25 pm

Speculatively, could I submit the results of Wijk to the ECF for grading? Or can I only submit a foreign event if I am participating?

It crossed my mind as a joke But getting more accurate ECFs for GMs who visit for 4NCL etc, and are usually E graded, might improve the accuracy at the very top of the list.

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Re: January 2012 grading list

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:27 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:Speculatively, could I submit the results of Wijk to the ECF for grading? Or can I only submit a foreign event if I am participating?

It crossed my mind as a joke But getting more accurate ECFs for GMs who visit for 4NCL etc, and are usually E graded, might improve the accuracy at the very top of the list.
ECF members can submit their overseas results to the grader for ECF grading, provided their intention to do so has been declared in advance.

Paul Cooksey

Re: January 2012 grading list

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:30 pm

so that's a no then, unless I can get chucky to stump up £27 and do the admin himself :)

Roger de Coverly
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Re: January 2012 grading list

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:44 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: Minor quibble, when you say "The highest grade on the system is that of Vasyl Ivanchuk (UKR) who with 10 graded games has just fallen short of breaking the 300 barrier at 296". The present tense is wrong there. That grade was already in the July 2011 list, and was due to his performance in Gibraltar 2011:

Another quibble. As the journal of record, the BCM should make sure to get its facts right.

The blog says
The grading system was devised by Sir Richard William Barnes Clarke and was first published in 1958. Originally the system used a digit and a letter to indicate a grade such as 2c, 4f etc.
2c and 4f were never grades to my knowledge. What they did was to group grading numbers (175 etc.) in 8 digit bands starting at around 240. They then went downwards starting from 1a, 1b, 2a etc. In its earliest form it went down to 5b which was around 175. Later they extended it to 9b. I don't know why they didn't just do 1,2,3 etc, or even a,b,c,d etc.

The point of banding it by 8 is that there's a statistical result which says you can have statistical confidence that X is a "better" player than Y if his grading performance is at least 8 points better.

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John Upham
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Re: January 2012 grading list

Post by John Upham » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:18 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: Another quibble. As the journal of record, the BCM should make sure to get its facts right.
I should have dated the post 1st April 2012: apologies!

For examples of the old number and letter system I've scanned in part of page 258 from BCM September 1965, Vol. LXXXV showing the 1965 BCF National Grading List:
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BCF National Grading List for 1965
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: January 2012 grading list

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:27 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Minor quibble, when you say "The highest grade on the system is that of Vasyl Ivanchuk (UKR) who with 10 graded games has just fallen short of breaking the 300 barrier at 296". The present tense is wrong there. That grade was already in the July 2011 list, and was due to his performance in Gibraltar 2011:

...

If the games from this year's Gibraltar tournament are rated (as they should be) the grade will change in the next list, and will also avoid him losing that grade due to inactivity. Not that he likely cares much about it. :D
I would suggest that playing simultaneously in Wijk aan Zee and Gibraltar is too much, even for a player of his standard. :)
Oops. You and Richard are quite right. :oops:

So that means Chucky will drop out of the ECF grading list come July 2012, unless some enterprising team in the 4NCL plays a wildcard!

Roger de Coverly
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Re: January 2012 grading list

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:30 am

John Upham wrote:For examples of the old number and letter system I've scanned in part of page 258 from BCM September 1965, Vol. LXXXV showing the 1965 BCF National Grading List:
To be fair, there were a handful of younger players in the list, but there were only 24 players of 209 and above. The Keene hypothesis of a later revolutionary breakthrough has a certain credibility.

Alan Burke

Re: January 2012 grading list

Post by Alan Burke » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:50 am

One slight problem with having new gradings issued halfway through the normal playing season is that some congresses have already produced their entry forms several months prior to the new grades being known. Some such tournaments (ie Blackpool) have stated that their sections will be based on the August grading list, although others do not include any such comment and just state that sections/grading prizes will be based on the "current grading list".

Therefore some players may have already entered a section under their old grade but now discover they are ineligible to play at that level because of an increase in their grade, or alternatively they might now be able to play in a lower section due to a grade decrease. In some cases there is a maximum grade limit to tournaments (ie "stars barred") and someone who thought they could enter an event now finds they are graded too high to do so.

Yes, in most cases it might be simple enough to change sections according to a player's new grade, but I already know of one situation where someone has booked a holiday at work in order to play in a certain event but now finds they are ineligible due to a change in grade and has now wasted those days' holiday. In another situation, a tournament is taking place in February and yet although the entry form was issued some months ago, the recently issued January grades are being used to determine which sections the players will be allowed to compete. Therefore some players may have entered not knowing which section they will actually be playing in.

Again, it might be simple to say that such congresses should state that gradings will be based on the list issued in January, but in one particular case I know of, the entry form states that there is a limit to the number of entries, so it might not be beneficial for players to wait until the new grades are issued as they might be too late to secure a place in the event.

I would have thought that any congress which issues an entry form before the new grades are announced should always have their sections based on the grades at the time of the publication of the entry form.

Mick Norris
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Re: January 2012 grading list

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:26 am

Is this somehow worse for Longplay events?

With Rapidplays we have been dealing with this for a while

Stockport (this weekend) uses the August grades and says so

Manchester (25 March) uses the January grades, and the first entry deadline is towards the end of Feb, and of course there is an Open section so no-one will be excluded
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Alan Burke

Re: January 2012 grading list

Post by Alan Burke » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:54 am

Stating the actual grading list to be used is fine, but the point I am trying to make is that some entry forms just state "the current grading list" and yet although the forms were issued some months ago, the gradings being used are those from the recent January list. I am just suggesting that all entry forms should state clearly which list they are going to use so that players can make arrangements.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: January 2012 grading list

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:14 pm

I must admit I am puzzled at the Blackpool Congress decision to use last summer's gradings. I can certainly see it leading to disputes :?:
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