July 2012 grading list now live

General discussions about ratings.
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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:27 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Paul McKeown wrote:FIDE only seems dangerous, you end up hostage to whatever T&C's they decide to impose.
Like it or not, you are already hostage anyway. Unless you are plotting some major revolution in the near future, you'll have the top end of the English players on both the FIDE rating and the ECF grading. So the question comes natural: why wasting resources maintaining two separate systems rather than getting everybody on the FIDE rating?
Because the majority of chess in England is played at time controls that aren't eligible for FIDE rating: chiefly G/90 and equivalent in weekday evening club chess. Unless FIDE change their regulations, that will continue to be the sticking point.

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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:28 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:So the question comes natural: why wasting resources maintaining two separate systems rather than getting everybody on the FIDE rating?
The answer comes equally naturally - alot of graded chess played in England would not qualify for FIDE rating because of the time control.

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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Paul McKeown » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:29 pm

Also, FIDE's k-factors are utterly inappropriate for rapidly improving players. Better for them to stay out of the FIDE system until their standard has stabilised.

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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Paul McKeown » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:31 pm

And the FIDE system is notorious for fake tournaments, fake results, etc. It is much easier to guarantee reasonable integrity for a national system.

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:35 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:
Paolo Casaschi wrote:So the question comes natural: why wasting resources maintaining two separate systems rather than getting everybody on the FIDE rating?
You would have to drop the rating floor to 200 or so, rather than 1200, just to begin with.
I guess if you dont want to do something you'll always find good reasons.
FIDE has been progressively lowering the rating floor.
Other countries are jumping on the bus, like Italy that is phasing out the Italian Elo system, at the moment kept only for people that dont have FIDE Elo. Ultimately the Italian Eo will disappear.

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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:38 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Paul McKeown wrote:I guess if you dont want to do something you'll always find good reasons.
FIDE has been progressively lowering the rating floor.
How would you suggest we address the fact that most evening league chess in England is played at a time control that does not qualify for FIDE rating?

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:38 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:Because the majority of chess in England is played at time controls that aren't eligible for FIDE rating: chiefly G/90 and equivalent in weekday evening club chess. Unless FIDE change their regulations, that will continue to be the sticking point.
Nothing comes for free, there's some work to be done. Such as working with FIDE to make sure a larger number of English events could be rated. There are already "relaxed" rules in place for event with low rating participants. Probably time spent better trying to work with FIDE rather than suing them for a gesture.

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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Paul McKeown » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:43 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:Probably time spent better trying to work with FIDE rather than suing them for a gesture.
Perhaps FIDE should clean up its act, stop passing brown envelopes around in return for votes and do something radical, like live by its own rules? :roll:

Paul Cooksey

Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Paul Cooksey » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:11 pm

I disagree with Adams approach. I think the position that discussion on grading has little value, excepting where there is a statistical challenge to be reviewed is wrong in a few ways.

1. This is a discussion about strategy, not detail

A number of changes to the grading system have been made:
• It is unclear why, since the case for change has not been published.
• It is unclear which consequences were forseen, or whether anything unforeseen happened, since objectives have not been published.
• It is unclear whether further changes are planned, as a plan has not been published.

These are matters of strategy. The ECF Board should be sharing strategy with Council, rather than inviting discussion on detail.

2. The perceived issues with changes are not complex.

I am sure it is known to the grading team that statistics based on large amounts of coherently sampled data are more reliable than those which are not. Sending “The Ladybird introduction to Statistics” to Richard Haddrell would be a pointless insult.

Presumably the issues were identified as acceptable in delivering the required changes. But the opaqueness of strategy means this is unclear.

3. Grading changes are important

For routine operational matters, it might be acceptable to avoid discussion to ensure changes are delivered efficiently. But grading is not a routine operational matter. The integrity of the grading system is the single most important ECF benefit for most players. For the ECF, it is thing that ensures its continued existence.

It is possible that those who run it have little inclination to adher to appropriate change control, or publish strategy. But I think the Home Director and the manager of Grading do have a responsibility to Council. Anyone in a management position should understand that the perception a good services is being delivered is as important as the service itself.

Personally, I’m disinclined to write a statistical analysis of grading, particularly given I only have partial visibility of the data. I’m more inclined to see if I can get an appropriate question about grading strategy on the agenda of the next ECF AGM. But really, I’d rather not.

Sharing information, either formally through Council or informally on this forum seems a better way for us all to live than the ECF Board Operating behind closed doors and the Council enforcing the letter of the law.

(edited a joke out at a moderators request, in case it was misinterpreted)
Last edited by Paul Cooksey on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Paul Cooksey » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:13 pm

Having got a substantial moan at Adam of my chess, I see we are now discussing outsourcing to FIDE.

I share the general lack of enthusiasm for partnership with FIDE. But alternatively the FFE, DSB and USCF all have rating systems. I imagine they would rate our games for a price, if we supplied the data in an agreed format. Given they are large Federations, maybe we would benefit from an economy of scale.

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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:47 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
IM Jack Rudd wrote:Because the majority of chess in England is played at time controls that aren't eligible for FIDE rating: chiefly G/90 and equivalent in weekday evening club chess. Unless FIDE change their regulations, that will continue to be the sticking point.
Nothing comes for free, there's some work to be done. Such as working with FIDE to make sure a larger number of English events could be rated. There are already "relaxed" rules in place for event with low rating participants. Probably time spent better trying to work with FIDE rather than suing them for a gesture.
Do you think we haven't tried?

One of the reasons I went to the FIDE Congress 2008 in Dresden, entirely at my own expense, was to argue the case for making G/90 and its equivalents eligible for rating.

I was really surprised that this was rejected.

However, so be it. I certainly won't be travelling to Istanbul to have another go.

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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Adam Raoof » Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:40 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:Having got a substantial moan at Adam of my chess, I see we are now discussing outsourcing to FIDE.

I share the general lack of enthusiasm for partnership with FIDE. But alternatively the FFE, DSB and USCF all have rating systems. I imagine they would rate our games for a price, if we supplied the data in an agreed format. Given they are large Federations, maybe we would benefit from an economy of scale.
;-)

I love you really, Paul! All of your points are very good ones, and the Manager for Grading and Rating is the person to answer them in detail.

BTW it would take me literally minutes (ok, maybe a week) to set up an Elo based rating system for England. Be careful about terms - I am not talking about FIDE rating, which is another matter.

The point is that people will never 100% agree that a rating system is 100% accurate.
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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:57 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Paolo Casaschi wrote:
IM Jack Rudd wrote:Because the majority of chess in England is played at time controls that aren't eligible for FIDE rating: chiefly G/90 and equivalent in weekday evening club chess. Unless FIDE change their regulations, that will continue to be the sticking point.
Nothing comes for free, there's some work to be done. Such as working with FIDE to make sure a larger number of English events could be rated. There are already "relaxed" rules in place for event with low rating participants. Probably time spent better trying to work with FIDE rather than suing them for a gesture.
Do you think we haven't tried?

One of the reasons I went to the FIDE Congress 2008 in Dresden, entirely at my own expense, was to argue the case for making G/90 and its equivalents eligible for rating.

I was really surprised that this was rejected.

However, so be it. I certainly won't be travelling to Istanbul to have another go.
As much as people here are resisting the change, it looks to me that the progressive extension of a global rating system is bound to happen; following that the local rating system will serve not much purpose anymore; it's a matter of resisting the natural change and wasting resources or following the flow and driving it in the direction the ECF wants.
When I started playing chess in Italy many years ago the national rating system had a cutoff at about 2000, as a result most people in my club did not have a national rating. The club decided to run a "club Elo-like rating list" and many clubs had their own. At some point, the national rating was extended down to about 1000 and everybody in the club got a national rating. At that point the "club Elo-like rating list" did not have much sense anymore, it probably lasted for a very long time though, as much as the guy doing the calculations kept updating it; today no Italian club, I think, has their own rating list and everybody accepts that some club competitions wont be rated, no big deal.
I'm convinced the same will eventually happen to national ratings, like the ECF grading. Hey, that's only my opinion (not much popular here apparently) and for the record, I also believe the UK would be better off with the metric system, go figure :-)

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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:08 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote: I'm convinced the same will eventually happen to national ratings, like the ECF grading.
The "only if" key point for the UK is that games lasting no more than a total of 180 minutes can be included. I know we could do it tomorrow by banning higher rated players, but that is unlikely. Congresses able to schedule four hour or longer sessions can go FIDE rated and some already have. But if you have to schedule three games in a day, making each game last a maximum of three and a half hours makes for a later start and earlier finish.

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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Adam Raoof » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:13 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Paolo Casaschi wrote: I'm convinced the same will eventually happen to national ratings, like the ECF grading.
The "only if" key point for the UK is that games lasting no more than a total of 180 minutes can be included. I know we could do it tomorrow by banning higher rated players, but that is unlikely. Congresses able to schedule four hour or longer sessions can go FIDE rated and some already have. But if you have to schedule three games in a day, making each game last a maximum of three and a half hours makes for a later start and earlier finish.
Paolo is, I think, talking about using Elo, not FIDE. You can adopt Elo methodology and do what you like with the time limits, as FIDE have done with the addition of Blitz and Rapid rating lists.

I am running an event in Hampstead in September for Under 2200 players precisely because making it Open would mean just four rounds, and playing a shorter time limit means we get three games on the Saturday and a reasonably early finish, which might reduce the number of Saturday night byes!
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