July 2012 grading list now live

General discussions about ratings.
Richard Bates
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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Richard Bates » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:30 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Paolo Casaschi wrote: I'm convinced the same will eventually happen to national ratings, like the ECF grading.
The "only if" key point for the UK is that games lasting no more than a total of 180 minutes can be included. I know we could do it tomorrow by banning higher rated players, but that is unlikely. Congresses able to schedule four hour or longer sessions can go FIDE rated and some already have. But if you have to schedule three games in a day, making each game last a maximum of three and a half hours makes for a later start and earlier finish.
Paolo is, I think, talking about using Elo, not FIDE. You can adopt Elo methodology and do what you like with the time limits, as FIDE have done with the addition of Blitz and Rapid rating lists.
No he's not, he's talking about FIDE. Hence the comments about duplication and countries giving up their own ELO systems etc. BTW FIDE rating is not just about time controls. FIDE games are also supposed to be played in a minimum standard of conditions. Most players see their FIDE rating in a different way to ECF grading. Generally they are far more sensitive about their FIDE rating (certainly for stronger players). It is not something you want to put at stake when tired (and sometimes emotional) after a long day at work at 7.30 in the evening.

Anyway the ECF's approach to change control with ECF grading is a model of excellence IMO compared to the mess that FIDE are making with their rating system in the rush to make it available to all. The other advantage of ECF is that it self corrects far quicker. Any misguided changes can be reversed within a couple of grading lists. If any ELO system is messed about with too much it can take years to correct.

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:59 pm

Richard Bates wrote:No he's not, he's talking about FIDE. Hence the comments about duplication and countries giving up their own ELO systems etc.
Right, I'm talking about dropping a national rating and relying on the FIDE Elo instead.
I'm not saying it can be done immediately, there are some issues to consider, like the duration of the games.
That is the type of effort I see for a national federation towards FIDE.
Richard Bates wrote:Most players see their FIDE rating in a different way to ECF grading. Generally they are far more sensitive about their FIDE rating (certainly for stronger players).
I could not agree more here. In the sense that, once you get the FIDE rating, your national rating does not really matter to you anymore. So why not moving as many people as possible on the rating that matters more to them? And also counting more games for that rating, making it more accurate?

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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Paul Cooksey » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:05 pm

Richard Bates wrote:Anyway the ECF's approach to change control with ECF grading is a model of excellence IMO compared to the mess that FIDE are making with their rating system in the rush to make it available to all. The other advantage of ECF is that it self corrects far quicker. Any misguided changes can be reversed within a couple of grading lists. If any ELO system is messed about with too much it can take years to correct.
I agree changes can be reversed more simply, although that is contingent on convincing the grading team there is an issue to address. Indications are this is not so simple.

I think a couple of years is optimistic. The 2008 regrading hasn't flushed through the entire list. Between 210 and 220 you can see players with very different Elos but similar ECF. Typically the ones with lower Elos play some chess against lower rated players, who gained points through inflation. The higher rated ones are mainly playing stronger opposition that did not have their grading inflated. It seems to me that the breakdown in the linear relationship, depending on what type of competition a player plays in, is an issue which will probably take several more lists to sort out.

I could give several examples, but I don't want to embarrass people I know by implying they are overrated (although I'm not really saying overrated, I'm saying differently rated). Fortunately I'm an example myself. I'm graded is 218, so is another forumite, Simon Ansell. His Elo is 80 points higher than mine, because, despite occasional self-depreciation, he is a better player. But I've picked up ECF points playing in my local leagues, where I play some people below 180 who have had significant inflation. Simon does not get the same bonus in the events he plays in, such as the top of the London league.

To Adam's earlier point, it is an issue if players of different strength are not separated by the grading system.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:10 pm

Richard Bates wrote: It is not something you want to put at stake when tired (and sometimes emotional) after a long day at work at 7.30 in the evening.
'Tired and emotional'? Not seen that ephemism for a long time!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tired_and_emotional

Richard Bates
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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Richard Bates » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:23 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Richard Bates wrote:No he's not, he's talking about FIDE. Hence the comments about duplication and countries giving up their own ELO systems etc.
Right, I'm talking about dropping a national rating and relying on the FIDE Elo instead.
I'm not saying it can be done immediately, there are some issues to consider, like the duration of the games.
That is the type of effort I see for a national federation towards FIDE.
Richard Bates wrote:Most players see their FIDE rating in a different way to ECF grading. Generally they are far more sensitive about their FIDE rating (certainly for stronger players).
I could not agree more here. In the sense that, once you get the FIDE rating, your national rating does not really matter to you anymore. So why not moving as many people as possible on the rating that matters more to them? And also counting more games for that rating, making it more accurate?
Actually my ECF grade does matter to me. Just in a different way to FIDE. The answer to your last question is answered simply by referring you to my previous post. I do not want games played at 7.30 in the evening, after a long day at work and a couple of pints in the pub, to count towards my FIDE rating. How that impacts on "accuracy" or otherwise depends how you define accuracy. The problem with the already wide variations that FIDE have allowed for the conditions for FIDE rated chess is that increasingly "accuracy"/strength is variable depending on where you play. e2e4 type tournaments are a very different proposition to 4NCL/one game a day chess. And can suit individual players very differently, to the potential extent that the rating list will not always be a particularly good guide to likely outcomes. Extend that to the whole panoply of currently excluded chess in England and you make the problem much worse.

David Blower
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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by David Blower » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:23 pm

Is there an update planned, because it doesn't have all of my results in it?

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Adam Raoof
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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Adam Raoof » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:28 pm

David Blower wrote:Is there an update planned, because it doesn't have all of my results in it?
David, if you make a list of the games and where and when they were played I am sure we can either explain their absence or query it with Richard Haddrell.
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David Blower
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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by David Blower » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:01 pm

Brewood v Stafford at Brewood on July 17th 2012 in the Wolverhampton Summer League. Myself v James Topp.

David Sedgwick
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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:15 pm

David Blower wrote:Brewood v Stafford at Brewood on July 17th 2012 in the Wolverhampton Summer League. Myself v James Topp.
The cut-off date for the list is 30th June.

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Peter D Williams
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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Peter D Williams » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:33 pm

Richard Bates wrote:Actually my ECF grade does matter to me. Just in a different way to FIDE. The answer to your last question is answered simply by referring you to my previous post. I do not want games played at 7.30 in the evening, after a long day at work and a couple of pints in the pub, to count towards my FIDE rating. How that impacts on "accuracy" or otherwise depends how you define accuracy. The problem with the already wide variations that FIDE have allowed for the conditions for FIDE rated chess is that increasingly "accuracy"/strength is variable depending on where you play. e2e4 type tournaments are a very different proposition to 4NCL/one game a day chess. And can suit individual players very differently, to the potential extent that the rating list will not always be a particularly good guide to likely outcomes. Extend that to the whole panoply of currently excluded chess in England and you make the problem much worse.
i agree with Richard.ECF grade matters in a different way to FIDE and i would not want it to count for FIDE in an evening match that is played at 7.30 PM when you have been busy all day with work or study.
when you are successful many losers bark at you.

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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:15 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
David Blower wrote:Brewood v Stafford at Brewood on July 17th 2012 in the Wolverhampton Summer League. Myself v James Topp.
The cut-off date for the list is 30th June.
When I return home from the British, I'll ask the League Secretary to send me the necessary material for the grading of this. David is correct that it is due in the next list.

David Blower
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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by David Blower » Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:20 am

Thanks Alex. Infact looking at the website, I can see that the whole match for Brewood v Stafford played on that night, has not been submitted yet, so it wasn't as if my result was the only one missing.

Be nice to have a number next to my name as I only have 8 games against my name so far!

Looking forward to playing against your club next season as well, Birmingham Checkmates is the best sounding name for a club I have ever heard!

Brewood Checkmates (what I didn't see it was Checkmate!) might be a more appriopriate name for our club! :mrgreen:

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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:21 pm

David Blower wrote:Looking forward to playing against your club next season as well, Birmingham Checkmates is the best sounding name for a club I have ever heard!
It's a team of juniors; the club was founded by Tony Miles, I believe. It certainly had much influence from him. We're just the league-chess-playing wing of that junior club!

I'm not attending the AGM on Wednesday, which will provide a problem or two. :oops:

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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Richard James » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:02 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
David Blower wrote:Looking forward to playing against your club next season as well, Birmingham Checkmates is the best sounding name for a club I have ever heard!
It's a team of juniors; the club was founded by Tony Miles, I believe. It certainly had much influence from him. We're just the league-chess-playing wing of that junior club!

I'm not attending the AGM on Wednesday, which will provide a problem or two. :oops:
It was founded by the late Mike Fox, who also co-founded Richmond Junior Club. Tony Miles was not, I believe, involved with its foundation.

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Re: July 2012 grading list now live

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:22 pm

Richard James wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:
David Blower wrote:Looking forward to playing against your club next season as well, Birmingham Checkmates is the best sounding name for a club I have ever heard!
It's a team of juniors; the club was founded by Tony Miles, I believe. It certainly had much influence from him. We're just the league-chess-playing wing of that junior club!

I'm not attending the AGM on Wednesday, which will provide a problem or two. :oops:
It was founded by the late Mike Fox, who also co-founded Richmond Junior Club. Tony Miles was not, I believe, involved with its foundation.
Fair enough!

In the UKCC, it seems to be called Tony Miles' Checkmates for whatever reason, so made an assumption.

Lesson learned. :)

Now, reports to write for the AGM I'm not going to... :(

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