Rapidplay Grade

General discussions about ratings.
Warren Kingston
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:05 pm

Rapidplay Grade

Post by Warren Kingston » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:22 pm

This was sent to everyone in Norfolk, does this mean that players who joined the ECF via phone or online do not get their games graded?

"If any of Norfolk's ECF Direct Members would like their games graded
they may submit them to me for grading provided two provisions can be
met as follows:

1. You have renewed your direct membership through the Norfolk MO.

2. Your opponent is also a Direct Member of the ECF, not necessarily
through the Norfolk MO.

3. You provide me with proof of your opponents agreement to having the
game graded and his/her ECF Direct Membership number. This could best
take the form of a scoresheet signed by your opponent."

Or is there another way of getting your game graded?

Sean Hewitt
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Sean Hewitt » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:27 pm

Events are normally graded via the organisers.

Is this the whole of the email? I wonder if this relates solely to friendly games for example?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:50 pm

Warren Kingston wrote:This was sent to everyone in Norfolk, does this mean that players who joined the ECF via phone or online do not get their games graded?
As Sean suggests, it could only apply to "casual" games as the general principle would be to grade all of an event or none of it. Selective grading has been disallowed for some years because of the risk of grading manipulation.
Warren Kingston wrote:. You have renewed your direct membership through the Norfolk MO.
Is this some sort of attempt to maintain the numbers renewing through the Norfolk MO? I really don't see why they bother. If the County Association wants £ 1 per head per player in Norfolk why not just levy it directly?

Warren Kingston
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:05 pm

Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Warren Kingston » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:26 am

The whole of the email.

Hi All,

Please find attached a revised entry form for the Thetford Rapidplay in
September.

Any queries about the event should be addressed to Kevin Moore at the
address on the form.


If any of Norfolk's ECF Direct Members would like their games graded
they may submit them to me for grading provided two provisions can be
met as follows:

1. You have renewed your direct membership through the Norfolk MO.

2. Your opponent is also a Direct Member of the ECF, not necessarily
through the Norfolk MO.

3. You provide me with proof of your opponents agreement to having the
game graded and his/her ECF Direct Membership number. This could best
take the form of a scoresheet signed by your opponent.

For any queries regarding grading please contact me.

Jaycee

Sean Hewitt
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Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:18 pm
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Sean Hewitt » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:40 am

Warren Kingston wrote:The whole of the email.

Hi All,

Please find attached a revised entry form for the Thetford Rapidplay in
September.

Any queries about the event should be addressed to Kevin Moore at the
address on the form.


If any of Norfolk's ECF Direct Members would like their games graded
they may submit them to me for grading provided two provisions can be
met as follows:

1. You have renewed your direct membership through the Norfolk MO.

2. Your opponent is also a Direct Member of the ECF, not necessarily
through the Norfolk MO.

3. You provide me with proof of your opponents agreement to having the
game graded and his/her ECF Direct Membership number. This could best
take the form of a scoresheet signed by your opponent.

For any queries regarding grading please contact me.

Jaycee
Thanks Warren. The event entry form makes no mention of grading or ECF membership requirements. It does look like Norfolk are offering to do selective grading. As Roger says, that's not allowed and none of the games would be graded even if submitted. You might want to tell them that :-)
Last edited by Sean Hewitt on Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Roger de Coverly
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Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:46 am

Warren Kingston wrote: Please find attached a revised entry form for the Thetford Rapidplay in
September.
I would have though that was out of order. You could split the tournament into graded and non graded, but surely a section should be graded in its entirety or not at all.

Actually it's cheating. Bronze members should be charged an extra £ 6 to upgrade to Silver, or the tournament should be ungraded.

Also there shouldn't be discrimination between one type of ECF member against another.

Write to Andrew Farthing to complain.

The entry form can be viewed here

http://lowestoftchessclub.org/PDF/Thetf ... 202012.pdf

It is completely silent on the issues of membership and grading. One might then assume that it was an ungraded Congress. In previous years, the Congress might have been able to be graded on the basis of free to MO people and 29p per game for the rest, less for the Junior events. The changes, which I assume Norfolk supported, were to remove the "MO right" and to put the grading cost up for non-members to £ 6 per head.

The split between Gold and Silver was introduced so that there could be a lower rate for club only players.

(edit) The 2011 entry form notes that ECF grading is included in the cost of entry and that members of the ECF can subtract £ 2 from the entry fee. They could have said the same this year by adding £ 6 (£4 probably in practice) to the entry fee and allowing Silver members to subtract £ 6 from the entry fee.

If the ECF has got its act together, even if it allows selective result submission, the organisers of the Congress should expect to receive a bill for £ 6 per head for every person not a Silver member. This would be regardless of which, or any, MO they had joined through. (/edit)

Warren Kingston
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:05 pm

Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Warren Kingston » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:12 pm

Thank you both for all that information. I do not want to upset the applecart here in Norfolk, just wondering if there was some other way of getting the games graded if non-MO/FO members were not going to get their games graded by the organisers.

I would assume you are both right but then someone is wrong?

The NCCA seem to be being picky about non MO/FO members, just another example I suppose. It is being proposed that clubs entry fees will reflect the percentage of non members at a club, so our club could see us pay more than other clubs next season. Then I do understand the dilemna that they are in, as they get the pound which reduces the entry fee costs. Our club will just have to vote on it again at our AGM next season. We were told at first to join online then it all changed from a MO to a FO and told to join like that.

Warren Kingston
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:05 pm

Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Warren Kingston » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:18 pm

The very latest entry form.
Attachments
Thetford%20Rapidplay%20Entry%20Form%202012.pdf
The latest Entry form
(172.66 KiB) Downloaded 164 times

Sean Hewitt
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Sean Hewitt » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:34 pm

Warren Kingston wrote:Thank you both for all that information. I do not want to upset the applecart here in Norfolk, just wondering if there was some other way of getting the games graded if non-MO/FO members were not going to get their games graded by the organisers
There is no legitimate way of doing so that I am aware of.

Alex Holowczak
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Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:29 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Warren Kingston wrote:Thank you both for all that information. I do not want to upset the applecart here in Norfolk, just wondering if there was some other way of getting the games graded if non-MO/FO members were not going to get their games graded by the organisers
There is no legitimate way of doing so that I am aware of.
John Charman has e-mailed Richard Haddrell to ask whether this could be done, and the answer he was given was "No".

So games played between silver members at the Thetford Rapidplay will not be graded.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:29 pm

Warren Kingston wrote: The NCCA seem to be being picky about non MO/FO members, just another example I suppose. It is being proposed that clubs entry fees will reflect the percentage of non members at a club, so our club could see us pay more than other clubs next season.
Just in case they tell you different, the amounts the county association will be paying the ECF will be
£12 for everyone signed via the FO
£ 2 per game for anyone, not signed up

This contrasts with the 2011-12 position
£12 for everyone signed up to the MO
58p per game for anyone, not signed up

What you get for the £ 12 is less than you used to. You no longer have access to Congresses or FIDE rated events without paying extra.
Warren Kingston wrote: I do not want to upset the applecart here in Norfolk,
It seems to me that if your delegate votes in favour of an ECF scheme which has the effect of making a local rapid-play more expensive to enter, then you should hold him to account.

Alex Holowczak
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Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:30 pm

Can someone please tell me what an FO, in the context used frequently above, is? :?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:35 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:Can someone please tell me what an FO, in the context used frequently above, is? :?
Probably should be FA in the sense of Framework Agreement, but you could coin a new phrase "Framework Organisation" to mean a body that had signed a Framework Agreement.

MO seems to mean all of "members only", "membership organisation" and "membership only" depending on the context.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Sean Hewitt » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:08 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:It seems to me that if your delegate votes in favour of an ECF scheme which has the effect of making a local rapid-play more expensive to enter, then you should hold him to account.
That's unfair and wrong. I know you like to ignore the facts but the alternative under consideration was increasing game fee which would also have had the effect of making a local rapid-play more expensive to enter.

Roger de Coverly
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Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:22 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote: That's unfair and wrong. I know you like to ignore the facts but the alternative under consideration was increasing game fee which would also have had the effect of making a local rapid-play more expensive to enter.
Game Fee for a rapid-play Congress was 29p per game. For a six round event that's an expense of £ 1.74 per player. You would have to increase it all the way up to £ 1 per game to make it equal the £ 6 charge now being demanded.

One of the consequence suggested by opponents of the scheme was that it would encourage Congresses, rapid-play Congresses in particular to withdraw from grading. These seems to have happened in the case of the Thetford Congress.

We have a local Congress that's very similar to the Thetford one. It's not until next year, but we will have the issue of whether to increase the entry fee by around £ 4 (with a £ 6 rebate for Silver/Gold members), offer players the choice of graded or ungraded sections, or withdraw the whole event from grading. The fourth viable option, now we don't have to insist on Gold membership, is to go FIDE rated in whole or part. It would still be a worry that a player with an active rapid-play rating, but an inactive standard play rating might have their rating suspended, as no clarification on this has been made by the ECF.

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