Rapidplay Grade

General discussions about ratings.
Warren Kingston
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Warren Kingston » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:33 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Warren Kingston wrote: The NCCA seem to be being picky about non MO/FO members, just another example I suppose. It is being proposed that clubs entry fees will reflect the percentage of non members at a club, so our club could see us pay more than other clubs next season.
Just in case they tell you different, the amounts the county association will be paying the ECF will be
£12 for everyone signed via the FO
£ 2 per game for anyone, not signed up

This contrasts with the 2011-12 position
£12 for everyone signed up to the MO
58p per game for anyone, not signed up

What you get for the £ 12 is less than you used to. You no longer have access to Congresses or FIDE rated events without paying extra.
Warren Kingston wrote: I do not want to upset the applecart here in Norfolk,
It seems to me that if your delegate votes in favour of an ECF scheme which has the effect of making a local rapid-play more expensive to enter, then you should hold him to account.
Thanks Roger, just one question, that is £2 per game per congress not League matches?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:40 pm

Warren Kingston wrote:
Thanks Roger, just one question, that is £2 per game per congress not League matches?
£ 2 per game is only for league matches and things treated as similar to league matches such as county matches and club or county internal competitions.

For Congresses, the non-member cost is £ 6 per player per Congress, meaning it's the same for a five round event as for a nine or ten round event. This is what the organisers of the Thetford event seemed to have baulked at. Alternatively they could just have said that everyone needed to be a Silver member. That would have made the FO cost £ 19 for all the local entrants instead of £ 13.

There's also no cost distinction between standard play and rapid play. Previously the ECF only asked for half the amount for rapid play as against the same number of rounds of standard play. The increases in entry fees to non-members for rapid play look proportionately more, probably because they are.

Warren Kingston
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Warren Kingston » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:50 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Warren Kingston wrote:
Thanks Roger, just one question, that is £2 per game per congress not League matches?
£ 2 per game is only for league matches and things treated as similar to league matches such as county matches and club or county internal competitions.

For Congresses, the non-member cost is £ 6 per player per Congress, meaning it's the same for a five round event as for a nine or ten round event. This is what the organisers of the Thetford event seemed to have baulked at. Alternatively they could just have said that everyone needed to be a Silver member. That would have made the FO cost £ 19 for all the local entrants instead of £ 13.
Are you right there or have I not explain properly? I am a member of the ECF but not through the FO (Norfolk) I am a Bronze member, surely the NCCA can not be expected to pay £2 per league match for my games to be graded!?

Alan Walton
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Alan Walton » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:58 pm

From the way I gather it, as you are a Bronze member through the ECF then your club shouldn't be charged for any league games which are graded, if you were a non-member then there would have been a £2 per match fee, this is under the previso that the league submits all games to be graded

Personally if you play more than one congress per season (not FIDE rated), then I would seriously consider upgrading to Silver

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:59 pm

Warren, it doesn't matter who you become a member through anymore; whether you become a member online, via Norfolk, via any other framework agreement, or by ringing the office, the same rules apply.

If you're a member at the correct level for the competition in question, you incur no Game Fee liability. A bronze member playing in a Norfolk league will have a Game Fee liability of £0.

Warren Kingston
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Warren Kingston » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:00 pm

Alan and Alex, that's how I read it.

Alan Walton
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Alan Walton » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:02 pm

I think we have to remember this thread is about the Thetford QP and the conditions of entry, we don't really need to start bringing the pros and cons of ECF Membership up again

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:06 pm

Alan Walton wrote:I think we have to remember this thread is about the Thetford QP and the conditions of entry, we don't really need to start bringing the pros and cons of ECF Membership up again
Alan, I agree.
Last edited by Alex Holowczak on Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:12 pm

Warren Kingston wrote: Are you right there or have I not explain properly? I am a member of the ECF but not through the FO (Norfolk) I am a Bronze member, surely the NCCA can not be expected to pay £2 per league match for my games to be graded!?
There is no charge to the Norfolk county for league and similar games played by ECF Bronze members. The £ 2 per game is for games played by non-members. If however, the Norfolk county runs or grades a Congress, it, or the Congress Organiser will be charged £ 6 for every Bronze and non-member who takes part.

If you check yourself on the ECF database, it reckons you are
Paid Bronze (expires 31 Aug 2013); MO: Norfolk

(added)
The bottom line on this is that Congresses still need to sign up to the ECF Game Fee scheme to get their events included in the grading list. If Thetford hasn't done this, it won't be included. Whilst in the distant past, the then equivalent of Platinum members could get games anywhere graded, this was abolished years ago for events in England on the grounds that it could permit grade manipulation. (/added)

John Charman
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by John Charman » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:13 pm

OK let's have some factual statements here in reply to you all.

I offered to grade our players games provided both they and their opponent was a silver member and they both agreed to it, it was a genuine offer to help and made after reading the following in the Help Guide in the online database:

GAME ELIGIBILITY FOR GRADING

Games can only be graded if they are played under acceptable conditions,
with clocks. Lightning and Correspondence games are excluded.

It is required that:
a. The FIDE Laws of Chess are used.
b. One of the following rates of play is complied with:

1. Rapidplay
Either:
i. Each player must have at least 15 minutes but less than 60 minutes
for all of his moves. This includes both the initial time control and
any subsequent time controls or quickplay finish.
ii. When Fischer (cumulative) mode is used then, using the assumption
that the duration of the game is 60 moves, each player must have at
least 15 minutes but less than 60 minutes.

2. Standardplay
Each player has more time than the maximum defined above for Rapidplay.

Whilst that clearly makes the games eligible for grading I obviously made the mistake of not checking with the person who would know for sure and that was Richard Haddrell whom I have now checked with and found there apparently are some other rules that I do not have a copy of anywhere even though I am an official grader.

I have therefore emailed all Norfolk players and apologised for misleading them and have said that if they think I have made a bad mistake then I am willing to resign as Grader, Membership administrator and Competition controller. I have already received many emails of support and one from the organiser of this thread, Mr Warren Kingston, in which he has asked me not to resign and states his thought that all of us involved in Norfolk's administration do a brilliant job and should carry on doing a brilliant job. Maybe this would not have happened had he thought that before he posted a complaint on a public forum and had instead asked me in an email if I was sure what I was offering was legal.

I have even had an email from the ECF CEO telling me I can't offer the service I wanted to, this on the same day that the subject was raised when he hasn't replied to an email I sent him 4 days ago regarding the appalling state of the membership system and offering help to try and sort it out.

So yet again this public forum has been fuelled for those of you who like to populate it and I suspect this message will help to start a lot more ungracious comment.

To Mr de Coverley who stated “Is this some sort of attempt to maintain the numbers renewing through the Norfolk MO? I really don't see why they bother. If the County Association wants £1 per head per player in Norfolk why not just levy it directly?”

I take that as an offensive insult; every single £1 that I make for the county by offering the renewal of their memberships through our MO goes straight back into the county in the form of a discount on our competition entry fees. None is kept in county funds and if it were it would be used for the betterment of our county. Not only that but I am sure that with one or two noteable exceptions every member in our county would willingly pay £1 to the county if we requested it to fund our chess. And the reason I bother is because I like to make the chess playing in Norfolk as easy as possible for all our players, the vast majority of whom appreciate the work I and others do on their behalf.

Also to Mr de Coverley who appears to imply we don't tell our members correct information I assure you that the system has been explained ad infinitum to our members both by myself and by our Chairman John Wickham, and we do not attempt to make any profit from their membership, it is just a service we offer to help them administratively.

So there you now have some facts, it would be nice if instead of constant criticism some constructive comments were posted on this site.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Adam Raoof » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:29 pm

John, I appreciate the work that you, and all those in your position do for chess.

It is not easy trying to work out all the effects of the new membership system on chess tournaments, leagues and clubs, but I can assure you that we will try to help you get it absolutely right!

My advice is communicate directly with Andrew (though he is unfeasibly busy), Alex or myself before going public with an entry form, just to be sure.
Adam Raoof IA, IO
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Don’t stop playing chess!

John Charman
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by John Charman » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:37 pm

Thank you very much Adam,

It is nice to see the voice of reason on here.

I always work very closely with the office and normally channel any questions through them. All the staff, Andrew, Tina and Chris are always a joy to talk to and so helpful.

I also do have the ear of a Non Executive Director in the shape of John Wickham who plays for the same club as I do and we work very closely together here in Norfolk.

Thanks for your comments though and I shall keep them in mind.

Richard Bates
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Richard Bates » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:57 pm

I wonder how many people would actually be put off entering a one day rapid play because it was ungraded?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:38 pm

John Charman wrote:
I take that as an offensive insult; every single £1 that I make for the county by offering the renewal of their memberships through our MO goes straight back into the county in the form of a discount on our competition entry fees. .
Why then don't you recommend that they renew directly with the ECF on the ECF website? As it is, you are collecting £ 13 from individuals and then offsetting £ 1 of that through club entry fees.
John Charman wrote: I like to make the chess playing in Norfolk as easy as possible for all our players, the vast majority of whom appreciate the work I and others do on their behalf..
If I were in your county, we would have constant rows. It's the very simple point that all forms of compulsory membership can discourage new and returning players.
John Charman wrote:Also to Mr de Coverley who appears to imply we don't tell our members correct information
By your admission you didn't know how the revised grading rules would work for a local Congress. What else are you telling Norfolk players?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Rapidplay Grade

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:46 pm

Richard Bates wrote:I wonder how many people would actually be put off entering a one day rapid play because it was ungraded?
That is a very interesting question. One possibility is to offer multiple sections, at least one of which would be advertised as both not to be graded and no additional membership required. By the nature of the existing patterns of membership in the Home Counties, the Silver/Gold membership would at least in part correlate with the more highly rated players. So does an E rapid-play grade matter to the club player more than £ 6 on the entry fee or the aggravation of having to visit the ECF pay site twice? It remains a riddle until we've seen more events.

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