ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

General discussions about ratings.
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:20 pm

IGRC = Independent Constitutional and Governance Review Commission

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 7&p=158867

(Sod's Law dictated that this posted appeared on a new page - it was intended to clarify David's use of the acronym in the post immediately preceding this one.)

EDIT: On closer inspection, I see David left a 'G' out of the acronym, which should be ICGRC! :mrgreen:

NickFaulks
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:23 pm

David Robertson wrote:
NickFaulks wrote:I don't see how it is the function of the CEO to instruct elected officers on how to conduct themselves.

That's because you don't grasp how a Board must work, as distinct from any old committee
An interesting assumption, though of course quite wrong. This Board is admittedly an unusual beast since, as Andrew has already pointed out, while the executives do report to the CEO, he has no power to control them. That is presumably the way Council wants it.
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by David Robertson » Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:03 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:On closer inspection, I see David left a 'G' out of the acronym, which should be ICGRC! :mrgreen:
On closer inspection? You should get down to Specsavers. Sharpish! :D

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:41 pm

Heh, I should have said "left a 'C' out of the acronym"... Ironically, I have recently had an eye test and no change in my prescription. ICGRC is a bit of an unwieldy acronym, to be fair to us both.

Nick Grey
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:36 am

No mention in last newsletter to members.
Not sure that players want monthly list (otherwise they will all have gone for Gold/Platinum).
On leagues some have been deliberately vague on strength. Though players & match captains may be unaware of it.
Interesting put together with other posts.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:44 am

Nick Grey wrote:No mention in last newsletter to members.
It's a strategic planning decision.

It's already been noted that it's a three way choice

(1) abandon the longstanding BCF/ECF methods in favour of an Elo based approach.
(2) modify the current methods in favour of those developed in Yorkshire.
(3) reject the proposed changes.

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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:35 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Nick Grey wrote:No mention in last newsletter to members.
It's a strategic planning decision.

It's already been noted that it's a three way choice

(1) abandon the longstanding BCF/ECF methods in favour of an Elo based approach.
(2) modify the current methods in favour of those developed in Yorkshire.
(3) reject the proposed changes.
Regarding the newsletter I would suspect that it will be mentioned in the next one. Obviously new initiatives, particularly far reaching ones such as this, have to be announced for the first time somewhere. Besides, it's not as if the ECF are introducing this overnight.

Regarding Roger's post above I would note that Alex never mentioned Yorkshire when setting out his proposals and Brian Valentine stated that he would consider the methods Yorkshire currently use.

I think the main questions we need to ask are a) what methods are used to rate amateur chess in other countries (which - let's face it - often have a far more lively scene) and b) why England should be any different? Why shouldn't we look at more up to the minute reporting using online systems? Yes, some leagues may have to review their rules but it's not as if they're being told by the ECF they have to play Fischer Random chess instead! Progress should not be held back by parochial attitudes.
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Mike Truran
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Mike Truran » Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:39 am

Progress should not be held back by parochial attitudes.
:lol:

Mick Norris
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:32 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote:I think the main questions we need to ask are a) what methods are used to rate amateur chess in other countries (which - let's face it - often have a far more lively scene) and b) why England should be any different? Why shouldn't we look at more up to the minute reporting using online systems? Yes, some leagues may have to review their rules but it's not as if they're being told by the ECF they have to play Fischer Random chess instead! Progress should not be held back by parochial attitudes.
No, they shouldn't, but the main question is what is actually going to get through Council, with votes dominated currently by leagues and congresses (as usual, whereas the main question should be what is best for English chess/chessplayers, that isn't how things currently work)

Or is the idea to wait until Council is "reformed"?
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:48 am

Mick Norris wrote: but the main question is what is actually going to get through Council, with votes dominated currently by leagues and congresses
In the past, has any Board had the courage to put to the voting membership the question of whether to abandon the Clarke grading system? The redesign of the 1990s had an intent that it could support any type of calculation engine, whether Clarke, Elo or something else. The implementation of that nearly wrecked the BCF as those who remember the period may recall. But I don't think that "let's adopt Elo" was ever put to the vote. Nor was it, that notwithstanding wordy business plans, did they ever say that a new (to the BCF/ECF) method of rating was to be adopted as a strategic decision.

If you think about implementation, dummy parallel running as with the regrading exercise would seem essential. You would want to know that your Elo parameters as adopted didn't restore you to a position where you had top juniors of a 200 to 210 standard retaining Elo ratings equivalent to 150 or 160. Dummy parallel running could bring in Congresses monthly, but leagues six monthly.

Members of Council have far longer memories than ECF Directors. They are going to recall that the grading team went off on a project to change everyone's grade without ever getting voting approval of the project.

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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by MartinCarpenter » Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:15 am

That'd definitely be thing to do just calculate/run monthly grades as a shadow system to the 6/12 monthly ones. Basically 'just' for the added amusement/interest. Incredibly hard to raise a principled objection to really.

Then if it really takes off you can look at dropping things etc.

Its useful that the ECF (and Yorkshire) systems are such that you can add up your grade a month at a time and get nearly the same result as doing it in one big chunk later on.
(Well, minor +-40 issues possible I guess.).

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:30 am

If a monthly grading/rating system comes in, some Leagues will not report results as they happen or on a monthly basis. That does not really matter. I don't think ECF really likes team events.

However, I hope Leagues will not be stupid enough to try to impose the monthly gradings/ratings on clubs during the season. Captains have enough problems getting players out, without having to worry about whether the guy who has played for the 4th team for 5 years is suddenly ineligible halfway through the season. If you have leagues where there is an average grade division, at the start of the season, you might be able to run a team, then you might suddenly find that as your players have had a good run, they are not allowed to play in February... Using the same grading/ratings for the duration of the season seems sensible.

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John Upham
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by John Upham » Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:35 am

I suspect that most leagues would operate the principle that the grading / rating list published at the start of season would be in force for the duration of that season in terms of eligibilty.*

More frequent grading / ratings lists could be used for the purposes of deciding board orders.

Many people (wisely) talk in terms of "playing strength" when determing board orders.

*Allowing for corrections appearing in interim Master Lists.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:39 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:If a monthly grading/rating system comes in, some Leagues will not report results as they happen or on a monthly basis. That does not really matter. I don't think ECF really likes team events.
In at least some leagues, results are up on the website as soon as one of the captains returns to a computer or internet connected device. With a bit of tweaking, pairings could be up on the web before the match starts, in the style of the 4NCL. A playing area ban of computers and other devices would preclude real time reporting of the results in the absence of an internet connected arbiter.

The weakness preventing regular reporting of results for grading is that interfaces between the result system and ECF grading software are not the most developed with the effect that the local graders have to do a certain amount of intervention.

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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:40 am

Roger de Coverly wrote: You would want to know that your Elo parameters as adopted didn't restore you to a position where you had top juniors of a 200 to 210 standard retaining Elo ratings equivalent to 150 or 160.
That problem is caused by very different sets of games being reported to the two systems, which is a separate issue. No system will ever reflect the results of games which are not reported to it.
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