The plans for the Grading System

General discussions about grading.
David Pardoe
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Postby David Pardoe » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:50 am

Michael,
Thanks for your comments.
Firstly, I`m not trying to tell anyone what to do. I put my views just as others do on this forum.
I`ve done my fair share of administration in chess, so I have some experience in those areas.
If you are saying that these things are not easy.. I agree. If they were easy, they would have been done.
The grading debate is but one area. I really cant see that this `monthly grading` idea is really going to achieve anything, certainly not by way of making chess more attractive and generating greater interest...but I could be wrong, of course.
If I were to try to spell out in detail (which I probably have on various threads), what my proposals entailed, Mr McKenna and others might face even more reading? His attention span looks stretched already...
If you`re saying that we are really short of the volunteers needed to implement some of these ideas.. I can`t disagree with that at all.
Lets hope that the current season of AGMs produces a good crop of new volunteers to keep the wheels turning.
BRING BACK THE BCF

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Adam Raoof
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Postby Adam Raoof » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:00 am

David Pardoe wrote:The grading debate is but one area. I really cant see that this `monthly grading` idea is really going to achieve anything, certainly not by way of making chess more attractive and generating greater interest...but I could be wrong, of course.


David - I can tell you as an organiser that publishing the grading list on a monthly basis, or even on a live basis, would make events more attractive and interesting to new players. It was hard to explain to new players on the tournament circuit that they might have to wait 18 months for a grade. It is difficult to explain that it may now "only" take six to twelve months depending on when they start and what events they participate in.

Monthly FIDE ratings are far more attractive and easy to understand for new players. Maybe even for experienced players.

Michael Flatt
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Postby Michael Flatt » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:23 pm

If the ECF were really serious about publishing live grades it is perhaps something that could be implemented almost immediately based on those tournaments that submit their results throughout the year, such as Adam's.

Currently, League results are accumulated over a six-month period before being submitted and obviously they would be missing from the calculation and I suggest would not concern new players and regular tournament players for whom it would be of most interest and benefit.

It might be worth just giving it a try to see the reaction from players and congress organisers.

John Swain
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Postby John Swain » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:35 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
David Pardoe wrote:The grading debate is but one area. I really cant see that this `monthly grading` idea is really going to achieve anything, certainly not by way of making chess more attractive and generating greater interest...but I could be wrong, of course.


David - I can tell you as an organiser that publishing the grading list on a monthly basis, or even on a live basis, would make events more attractive and interesting to new players. It was hard to explain to new players on the tournament circuit that they might have to wait 18 months for a grade. It is difficult to explain that it may now "only" take six to twelve months depending on when they start and what events they participate in.

Monthly FIDE ratings are far more attractive and easy to understand for new players. Maybe even for experienced players.


I understand that Yorkshire grades already appear monthly so perhaps the ECF might canvass opinion in Yorkshire :shock: about how well their monthly grades are received and then might decide whether to play catch-up. :wink:

MartinCarpenter
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Postby MartinCarpenter » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:03 pm

Yorkshire grades are fully live - they change after every game. Most of us seem to regard the live grades as harmless, sometimes amusing!, fluff, and the end of season grades as vaguely useful :)

I guess it is rather easier to imagine someone really liking the live grades than someone being actively put off by them though.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Postby MartinCarpenter » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:09 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:Well, that's my impression. I've tried to put as clearly as I can why I suspect others are perhaps dismissive. I am not wanting to be hostile.


Think its almost certainly the length/rambling nature of the posts.

Even at the best of times, people on internet message boards have Mayfly style attention spans :)

John McKenna
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Postby John McKenna » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:56 pm

David Pardoe wrote:
John McKenna wrote:
...

Sometimes less is more... than enough.


John, If you check the stats, it appears that you post 5 or 6 times more frequently here than I do...


David, I was a bit flippant with my 'Doolittle' post, perhaps.

(And, thanks for pointing to the marked difference in the relative frequency of our posts. However, as Michael indicated, there is a marked difference between my prolificity and your prolixity.)

GBS had Professor Higgins & Colonel Pickering transform Alfred P. from a blagger and a blackguard into a moralist on the lucrative lecture circuit. I'm afraid that our Prof has retired leaving only his good friend, our Col, in the field. He showed he is no great friend of yours by quoting, above, "Nidgett speaks... "

My advice to you is to post more frequently but less densely - keep it mainly short and pithy. Save your manifestoes for the big occaisions.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Roger de Coverly
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Postby Roger de Coverly » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:02 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:If the ECF were really serious about publishing live grades it is perhaps something that could be implemented almost immediately based on those tournaments that submit their results throughout the year, such as Adam's..


They are already doing something - a grading calculation underpins the calculation of most improved player for the Tradewise awards.

Provided that monthly grades were published on a basis of "this is what your next six month grade will be if you don't play any more games", the ECF could go ahead with this. Shouting from league players might help get a system for instant reporting of league results established. A practical problem is that the ECF's rules for juniors involve far more recalculation than really should be necessary.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Postby Andrew Zigmond » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:20 am

David Pardoe wrote:The grading debate is but one area. I really cant see that this `monthly grading` idea is really going to achieve anything, certainly not by way of making chess more attractive and generating greater interest...but I could be wrong, of course.


This thread is dedicated to `The Plans For The Grading System`. Only a paragraph or so of your post really touched on that. I do feel that your posts tend to be quite lengthy and often repeat the same points. The idea of leagues for novices and OMOV are discussion points but belong on threads about that.

I have made the point to a few correspondents in the past that cast iron proposals are easier to make progress with than discussion points and vague generalizations.
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Andrew Zigmond
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Postby Andrew Zigmond » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:31 am

John Swain wrote:
I understand that Yorkshire grades already appear monthly so perhaps the ECF might canvass opinion in Yorkshire :shock: about how well their monthly grades are received and then might decide whether to play catch-up. :wink:


The ECF has looked at replicating the Yorkshire system nationally but it ultimately proved difficult to implement. I am not prepared to comment further on this on a public forum but the sneer in the ECF's direction is not justified on this occasion.

I've never been a massive fan of the Yorkshire Live grades. Some of this is because a lot depends on the quality of the reporting and there is no proforma way of submitting internal club games which still have to be imputted manually by the grader. We've also never found a satisfactory way of aligning live grades to the board order rule and, after that rule becoming a bit fluid, we were forced to specify the start of the season list being used (I did suggest reverting to the January list when that was published but that proved very unpopular).

When the ECF implements monthly grades it will be a different way of thinking. Some will embrace it, others will feel uncomfortable. That's the way of things unfortunately.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Postby Roger de Coverly » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:50 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote:When the ECF implements monthly grades it will be a different way of thinking.


Officially it's a case of "If" rather when "When".

If a Yorkshire style continuous moving average is ruled out, that still leaves at least three other options, namely

"This what your next January/July grade would be if you didn't play any more games". This converges to the actual published performance over the six months. I expect a number of players already monitor their performance in this manner to the extent that guessing the grades of new players and juniors doesn't distort it.

"The monthly grade is the average over the previous 12/24/36 months". Again this converges to the existing six monthly grades.

It scraps the idea of a grade being a direct performance measurement and goes over to something in the Elo family of rating systems, namely new rating = old rating +/- adjustment (from recent results).

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Clive Blackburn
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Postby Clive Blackburn » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:01 am

The following advertisement appeared on the official ECF site on 7th July:-

Grading Database Administrator – invitation to tender

On clicking on the link, the first item of the Job Description is:-

1. To prepare the initial Grading List, with July 2017 grades, for publication on the ECF Grading website in late July

Surely this does not allow enough time for the tenders to be properly considered and for the successful applicant to become familiar with the job before attempting a major update to the grading list.
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Clive Blackburn
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Postby Clive Blackburn » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:06 am

Clive Blackburn wrote:The following advertisement appeared on the official ECF site on 7th July:-

Grading Database Administrator – invitation to tender

On clicking on the link, the first item of the Job Description is:-

1. To prepare the initial Grading List, with July 2017 grades, for publication on the ECF Grading website in late July

Surely this does not allow enough time for the tenders to be properly considered and for the successful applicant to become familiar with the job before attempting a major update to the grading list.


I'm sorry, I think I misread the advertisement, it does say "July 2017 grades" and not July 2016, so that allows them a year to prepare.
"Tactics flow naturally from a superior strategical position".
Bobby Fischer

Roger de Coverly
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Postby Roger de Coverly » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:10 am

Clive Blackburn wrote:Surely this does not allow enough time for the tenders to be properly considered and for the successful applicant to become familiar with the job before attempting a major update to the grading list.


The context of this is that Richard Hadrell is standing down. If the proposed League management System goes ahead, the job is likely to change. The design of the existing system is essentially one of "diskette in the post" with Richard's role being to ensure each set of data is processed once and only once and there aren't gross holes like all grades being out by a factor of 10. Given the chaos and late publication which fifteen to twenty years ago was something of a norm, I think he's done a good job within the constraints of the system design.

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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Postby Alex Holowczak » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:37 am

Clive Blackburn wrote:I'm sorry, I think I misread the advertisement, it does say "July 2017 grades" and not July 2016, so that allows them a year to prepare.


Ironically, Richard himself observed that someone would misread that as the July 2016 grading list. :lol:


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