Calculating new grades for previously graded players

General discussions about grading.
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Calculating new grades for previously graded players

Postby Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:00 am

Can anyone clarify how new grades are calculated for players who previously had a grade? Does it depend at all on the previous grade, or are the calculations done from scratch?

From: http://www.ecfgrading.org.uk/new/menu.php?file=help&

"Players not meeting any of the above requirements are ungraded. A player loses his grade if inactive for two consecutive 6-month grading periods. Old grades are not restored when players return to activity. The player remains ungraded, and his next grade will be calculated using a "starting grade" (see below: How Grades are Calculated)."

So I assumed that there is no countback to include previous games even if you only drop out of the grading lists for a short while? But is that the right assumption or not?

"The grade is calculated by dividing the total number of points scored by the number of games played. If there are 30 or more games in the most recent 12 months, then the grade is based on these games alone. If there are not, it is based on the most recent 30 games played; or on all the games played in the last 36 months if that is less. In no case does calculation go back more than 36 months."

My question is whether the countback program is used to check whether currently ungraded players (who have new games to be graded) have games available from previous grading periods within that 36 month period? I suppose not, as it doesn't make much sense if you are recalculating from scratch to then start bringing in older results.

The specific example here is me, as I recently played in a rapidplay (the Open section of the first of the relaunched Richmond Rapidplays) and scored a win against an ungraded player and five losses against an average grading field of 191. Will I get a completely new grade in the next list (around 140), or will there be some countback to include the rapidplay games I played in earlier periods (five in December 2014, five in July 2014, five in March 2014 and six in August 2013)?

The other question is whether my current standard grade (166) will be used in the calculations? The grading FAQ has this to say:

"Estimating a starting Grade for an ungraded player (or a junior): A Rapid grade, where available, will be used in default of a Standard grade; and vice versa."

Does this mean that a starting grade won't be used for me, but that my standard grade of 166 will be used? Am I right in assuming that this starting grade will have affected the grading of the games for my opponents (only one of whom was graded more than 40 points above 166), who will have had their wins counting as 216. And does my win over the ungraded player that I beat count for "166+10=176"?

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Calculating new grades for previously graded players

Postby MartinCarpenter » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:35 am

I would think that they'd use the games in the 3 year window, even when estimating your grade from scratch after a year of inactivity. It'd be fairly perverse not to really - its hard enough estimating grades without throwing data away :)

The thing you'd be losing would be any kind of lingering effect on your grade from older times than that - the +-10 thing can cause a modest long term effect for instance.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Calculating new grades for previously graded players

Postby Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:01 am

Thanks, Martin. I should email this question somewhere for an official answer, or maybe try the other forum (which may be reopening?), but what you say makes sense. I played rapidplay games in the 2014-15 season and in the 2015-16 season. I had forgotten that you need to play graded games at least once in every 12-month period (i.e. once a season may not be enough if you play in the first half of one season and the second half of the next) to keep your grade history 'continuous'.

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Re: Calculating new grades for previously graded players

Postby Neill Cooper » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:07 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Thanks, Martin. I should email this question somewhere for an official answer

Click on 'Contact Us' which brings up the dialogue box: http://www.ecfgrading.org.uk/new/contact.php

Angus French
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Re: Calculating new grades for previously graded players

Postby Angus French » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:05 pm

Interesting question, Chris. I hadn't previously seen or taken notice of the text which says: "Old grades are not restored when players return to activity. The player remains ungraded, and his next grade will be calculated using a "starting grade" (see below: How Grades are Calculated)."

My reading/understanding is different to Martin's: that (based on the last section of text you quote) your starting grade for rapidplay grade calculations will be your standard play grade.

Brian Valentine (Manager of Grading) or Richard Haddrell (Grading Administrator), both sometime contributors to this forum, should be able to say for definite.

Alasdair MacLeod
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Re: Calculating new grades for previously graded players

Postby Alasdair MacLeod » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:51 pm

Angus French wrote:Interesting question, Chris...


Question? I counted 9 of them.... I was a bit disappointed Chris didn't make it into double figures in 1 post :-)

I'm afraid I can't offer any definite answers, the advice already given regarding the grading contacts is good.

Or you could just relax and just wait for the new grades at the end of July? I haven't bothered working ouť my new grades for the past 5 years or so and this, combined with no chess study whatsoever, has contributed to being pleasantly surprised when the grades come out 8)

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Calculating new grades for previously graded players

Postby Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:59 pm

:lol: Thanks, Alasdair.

It was surprisingly relaxing playing in a chess event as an 'ungraded' player.

Here's a challenge for anyone too focused on grades.
Ignore grades completely, and just concentrate on the chess.
Play the game and the position. Don't get distracted by anything else.

OTOH, those people playing John Nunn in the rapidplay yesterday seemed to be taking their chess a bit more seriously when facing him (he was also technically without an ECF rapidplay grade, though I think FIDE ratings were actually being used for the pairings). It is easy to get distracted by the reputation or the grade of the person you are playing.

Brian Valentine
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Re: Calculating new grades for previously graded players

Postby Brian Valentine » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:22 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Can anyone clarify how new grades are calculated for players who previously had a grade? Does it depend at all on the previous grade, or are the calculations done from scratch? It is based on results from the last three years

From: http://www.ecfgrading.org.uk/new/menu.php?file=help&

"Players not meeting any of the above requirements are ungraded. A player loses his grade if inactive for two consecutive 6-month grading periods. Old grades are not restored when players return to activity. The player remains ungraded, and his next grade will be calculated using a "starting grade" (see below: How Grades are Calculated)."

So I assumed that there is no countback to include previous games even if you only drop out of the grading lists for a short while? But is that the right assumption or not? Countback is over the previous 36 months

"The grade is calculated by dividing the total number of points scored by the number of games played. If there are 30 or more games in the most recent 12 months, then the grade is based on these games alone. If there are not, it is based on the most recent 30 games played; or on all the games played in the last 36 months if that is less. In no case does calculation go back more than 36 months."

My question is whether the countback program is used to check whether currently ungraded players (who have new games to be graded) have games available from previous grading periods within that 36 month period? I suppose not, as it doesn't make much sense if you are recalculating from scratch to then start bringing in older results. Countback is over 36 months

The specific example here is me, as I recently played in a rapidplay (the Open section of the first of the relaunched Richmond Rapidplays) and scored a win against an ungraded player and five losses against an average grading field of 191. Will I get a completely new grade in the next list (around 140) depends what you mean by completely new grade, or will there be some countback to include the rapidplay games I played in earlier periods (five in December 2014, five in July 2014, five in March 2014 and six in August 2013)? These results will be included

The other question is whether my current standard grade (166) will be used in the calculations? The grading FAQ has this to say:

"Estimating a starting Grade for an ungraded player (or a junior): A Rapid grade, where available, will be used in default of a Standard grade; and vice versa."

Does this mean that a starting grade won't be used for me, but that my standard grade of 166 will be used? yes Am I right in assuming that this starting grade will have affected the grading of the games for my opponents (only one of whom was graded more than 40 points above 166), who will have had their wins counting as 216 yes. And does my win over the ungraded player that I beat count for "166+10=176"? No -their starting grade will be the base for your points


I think I have covered all the questions by inserting comments in italics in the text.

Paul Dargan
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Re: Calculating new grades for previously graded players

Postby Paul Dargan » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:20 pm

Excellent service as ever from Brian.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Calculating new grades for previously graded players

Postby Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:57 pm

Agreed. Thanks from me too, Brian. Much appreciated.

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Re: Calculating new grades for previously graded players

Postby Angus French » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:41 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Agreed. Thanks from me too, Brian. Much appreciated.

Er, I'm now confused by the statement quoted in Chris's original post: "Players not meeting any of the above requirements are ungraded. A player loses his grade if inactive for two consecutive 6-month grading periods. Old grades are not restored when players return to activity. The player remains ungraded, and his next grade will be calculated using a "starting grade" [my emphasis]". Where does Brian's reply sit with that?

Brian Valentine
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Re: Calculating new grades for previously graded players

Postby Brian Valentine » Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:09 pm

Angus French wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Agreed. Thanks from me too, Brian. Much appreciated.

Er, I'm now confused by the statement quoted in Chris's original post: "Players not meeting any of the above requirements are ungraded. A player loses his grade if inactive for two consecutive 6-month grading periods. Old grades are not restored when players return to activity. The player remains ungraded, and his next grade will be calculated using a "starting grade" [my emphasis]". Where does Brian's reply sit with that?


Angus,
Forgive me if I have misunderstood the source of your confusion. If I can try to help: In Chris's case in January, his starting rapidplay grade will not be his lapsed 143 rapid grade, but his active 166 standard play grade.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Calculating new grades for previously graded players

Postby Roger de Coverly » Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:42 pm

Brian Valentine wrote: In Chris's case in January, his starting rapidplay grade will not be his lapsed 143 rapid grade, but his active 166 standard play grade.


The practical effect of that is that he can never do better than beating a player graded 206 or worse than losing to one graded 126. His opponents score 166 rather than what's left of his 143 grade.

E Michael White
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Re: Calculating new grades for previously graded players

Postby E Michael White » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:20 am

Brian Valentine wrote:I think I have covered all the questions by inserting comments in italics in the text.
Does the standard play grade used as a starting RP grade estimate affect Chris's final new RP grade or the grades of others in any way ? If not why is it included in the notes ?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Calculating new grades for previously graded players

Postby Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:54 am

E Michael White wrote:Does the standard play grade used as a starting RP grade estimate affect Chris's final new RP grade or the grades of others in any way ? If not why is it included in the notes ?


I thought we had established that the standard play grade is used in the calculation of the performance of his opponents, so it affects them. Chris's grade is affected only if the 40 point rule comes into play.

I've checked back my own history. I only play one rapid event a year, so I get a rolling three year D grade based on 15 games. One year I didn't play, thus I would be notionally ungraded for the following year. My opponents were credited with my standard play grade.


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