European Youth Championships 2014

[Roger de Coverly]

It seems to me that the main reason is the levels of expectation of some parents

It also gets the ECF fending off legal challenges about selection for such events. It's not just the ECF though, the Welsh Chess Union got itself involved in a dispute as well. I think that one was about coaching rather than access.

In days gone by, you would get a Junior Squad descending on a weekend Congress, sometimes causing mayhem with their coach's latest idea.

[NickFaulks]

So we do need to consider whether it is such a good idea to send our juniors to these rating trap events.

Is it really being suggested that English juniors should duck the unique experience of playing their international peers in these championships because they're afraid of losing a few rating points?

[Jonathan Rogers]

So we do need to consider whether it is such a good idea to send our juniors to these rating trap events.

Is it really being suggested that English juniors should duck the unique experience of playing their international peers in these championships because they're afraid of losing a few rating points?

No; that is your interpretation, but since others might share it, I will elaborate:

a) the experience seems to be "unique" in the sense of it being uniquely exhausting for everyone. We hear a lot about queueing an hour for dinner and hours of coaching, necessary because that is what the opposition is doing. Isn't it so much better to play an open event in a nice environment? (They can be sent as a team so as to also make frends, and prepare games with coaches etc). I don't see that our strongest under 18s, Alan Merry and Isaac Sanders, waste their time, money and energy in these junior events - they play strong Opens in places like Riga, etc.

b) "a few rating points"; or, with K factors now at 40 for players under 2300, quite easily over 50! That is a lot, and it matters quite a lot - maybe not so much at the age of 10 or 11 but certainly by the age of 14. The difference between 2250 and 2200, for example, is the difference between playing in the first division and playing in the second division of 4NCL, at least from the Barbican perspective.

[Martin Crichton]

Surely the whole point of these events is to give the kids a chance to shine....there may be some prodigy coming through but if you take away the opportunities you deny them the chances.
So what if this generation of kids are below the standards of the Tony Miles generation....thats life.
I doubt very much that the kids themselves would want to avoid playing others. I never avoid playing anyone due to fear of losing rating points although I confess I have'nt played in the west london rapidplay again because it was all juniors when I played last time. I prefer a more mixed range of opponents in events.

[Jonathan Rogers]

talented juniors more often shine against experienced adults rather than against their peers. So what is this valuable opportunity which they would be denied?

[Peter D Williams]

talented juniors more often shine against experienced adults rather than against their peers. So what is this valuable opportunity which they would be denied?

To be selected to play for England is what these young players would miss out on.I guess it is a good job Nick Pert(GM) was not blocked from taking part.Pert was the World Under-18 Chess Champion in 1998 and before that attained good results at the European U-12 and U-14 Championships where he finished 3rd and 4th respectively,

Of course you do not have to play in these events it is a chioce we did the junior chess Europeans twice and enjoyed it.Made some friends from the events who we still keep in touch with.I would guess if a young player is asked to play for the England Junior team he is going to want to do this but of course it depends on the parents being able to afford it. Most parents of chess juniors would be aware of some of the problems with these events but would still want to give the child a chance to play for England.We tried to do all types of events playing Adults juniors anyone.Now our money is going into helping Peter for when he goes to university.

[Jonathan Rogers]

I think I will be repeating myself a lot if I carry on arguing the point in this thread. It would help if my original posts were read in full.

It was quite proper to send Nick Pert to the world u-18 in 1998; I remember it all very well because he had just signed for Barbican at the time. In fact he missed the first weekend of the 98/99 season to play this event. But it was right to send him and the others because the event itself was much more enticing - fewer players, fewer under-rated players, and the coaching opportunities outside of these events for juniors was only just developing at the time. But the events seem to be losing their attractiveness over time. And we should ask "what exactly are we getting from these events which we wouldn't get by sending teams of juniors to open events with coaches?" The answers to this seem very vague and to rely a lot upon "feelings" rather than proven chess development (and no surprise there because as noted above, some of our best u-18s of today have not been playing these events).

Now, it is easy enough for me to say this; I have no responsibility for junior chess and unlike the ECF junior director I would not have to deal with howls of protests from juniors or parents who like the idea of "playing for their country". But there it is. An objective discussion and appraisal of what is actually gained from these events is nonetheless overdue.

[Coral Bennett]

It also gets the ECF fending off legal challenges about selection for such events. It's not just the ECF though, the Welsh Chess Union got itself involved in a dispute as well. I think that one was about coaching rather than access.

We received a full refund plus court costs.

The WCU then banned us from attending any future individual Junior World or European Championships.

Unbelievably they still expected us to pay them over £1,000 for accommodation - plus the cost of flights to Stirling - to attend the Glorney Under 18 team tournament - even though my children are both Under 16s.
We declined. Wales came last.

[Kevin Thurlow]

It probably benefits the juniors more to play in a competitive open, within reason. A few years ago, Guernsey had about 100 players, Tony Corfe waltzed in and told the arbiter, "I've got 25 juniors with me, you're not allowed to pair them against each other". Luckily for him, the arbiter was very placid, and merely pointed out that he was asking the impossible. A compromise of trying to only have two junior-junior games per individual was agreed, then there was a lot of whining when there were 10 juniors out of 12 on a score group. and some ended up playing each other.

Luckily, the junior squad the next year was of a more manageable size, although some of the adults who had played juniors in every round decided to play elsewhere!

[John Higgs]

Congratulations to the 28 juniors representing their country in a tough event.

Best of luck for the remaining 3 rounds

follow their success via the twitter feed: @ECFEYCC2014

[Richard Bates]

Ultimately, if the participation is basically funded by parents then I reckon it is up to them, however much we might suspect that they are getting very poor value for their money. The problem would be if the concentration on these events results in them being the only focus for the ECF itself, leaving little or no structured (non-financial) support to participation of leading juniors in other (adult) international events, which are likely to prove far more useful for their development (and far more beneficial for their rating as well!). And this doesn't have to be mass parties of 25-30 kids as per Kevin's example, but smaller groups of, say, 5-10.

Really i don't see the value (other for the CV - "played for England") of consistently playing in these events, unless a player has a serious chance of challenging at the business end. And even for those players it is possible that using valuable non-school time to play is of debateable value compared with the alternatives. But whether the ECF are actually doing much in analysing the results of what is going on, and using that as a basis for allowing parents to make genuinely informed decisions i don't know. I hope so.

[Lewis Martin]

Ultimately, if the participation is basically funded by parents then I reckon it is up to them, however much we might suspect that they are getting very poor value for their money.

There it is: as long as a child has rich parents, no matter how good they are, they can play.

Really i don't see the value (other for the CV - "played for England")

Some parents abuse this. Particularly if the said competitor is not as worthy for the place as other juniors stronger than them. I know one particular individual who has this on his CV, and he wasn't much more than an average junior.

So, not only does the rich kid get to play for England over someone else, he also has a more embellished CV giving the false notion that they are a better chess player all because of the bank of Mum and Dad.

Guess what it means for the future? Said player will have given up chess now and focus on other activities more worthy of his time.

[Peter D Williams]

There it is: as long as a child has rich parents, no matter how good they are, they can play.

Some parents abuse this. Particularly if the said competitor is not as worthy for the place as other juniors stronger than them. I know one particular individual who has this on his CV, and he wasn't much more than an average junior.

So, not only does the rich kid get to play for England over someone else, he also has a more embellished CV giving the false notion that they are a better chess player all because of the bank of Mum and Dad.

Guess what it means for the future? Said player will have given up chess now and focus on other activities more worthy of his time.

Parents can apply to the John Robinson Youth chess Trust.

Applications for Grants by the John Robinson Youth Chess Trust are invited. They should be addressed to Tina Turner at the ECF Office at The Watch Oak, Chain Lane, Battle, East Sussex TN33 0YD and must meet the criteria for the Trust “to advance education by providing or assisting in the provision of facilities for the teaching development and supervision of the playing of chess amongst persons under the age of twenty one years resident in England or eligible to represent England at chess who are, or may be, interested in chess and by students attending schools universities and other educational establishments in England.”

The Trust was created following the death of John Robinson on 1st February 2006. In his Will dated 14th February 1996 he left substantial bequests to the British Chess Federation. These were a one third share in his home in Kettering and 91% of his residuary estate. He expressed the wish that approximately £10,000 be used each year for promoting and endowing the British Chess Championships

I wonder if having to apply to this trust could put people off would you want a stranger to look at your income etc?

I think the junior director can help with funding for Worlds or Eurpeans if you are picked and have problems paying but again would one want to admit this?

Your never change the fact that if a parents is well off he/she is going to be able to help the child a lot more via private education or private tuition that is the way of the world.I guess a better off parent would be able to take a child to more chess events not having to worry about the cost of a hotel etc.

I did hear talk from other parents when Peter was playing chess that some juniors where being helped more via some sort of chess fund but I have know idea if this was true and some one once approached me and said you will get the same sort of funding as Yang-Fan Zhou but i had no idea what he was talking about and did not have time to follow it up with him

[Leonard Barden]

Alex Golding has been the star English player in this event. He is in joint fourth place with 6/8, has performed at 2134 compared with his rating of 1910, has gained 91 rating points, and in round eight defeated the No2 seed from Hungary, rated 2315. Congratulations to him!

[LawrenceCooper]

Final scores now available here: http://chess-results.com/tnr144973.aspx ... =30&wi=984

Thanks to Jim Wadsworth (Head of Delegation), the coaches: Lorin D'Costa, John Emms, Glenn Flear, Jovanka Houska, Andrew Martin, Neil McDonald and Gyula Meszaros and to all the players and parents for all their hard work prior to and during the tournament. Safe journey home to all.