An ECF Junior Squad

[Jim Wadsworth]

Thank you for your summary Andrew.

A survey of around 100 respondents seems a good idea and I don't understand the earlier criticism at all. This forum clearly doesn't reach everyone and widening the discussion to other parents, current and recent juniors is a good way to gather opinions.

It should also be remembered that promoting junior chess is about more than supporting elite players, which the proposal for an ECF junior squad is directed at. At the risk of repeating comments made many times here before, unless you have a decent mass of players getting involved at the base of the pyramid, there will be fewer rising to the top. In this context it might be helpful to establish some appropriate measures of junior chess activity. Counting juniors at the British Championships is one very small metric, knowing how many juniors are competing in leagues and congresses as well as junior events such as UKCC - and how those figures are changing over time - would be more helpful.

Concur with Steve on thanking Andrew.

On the ECF Junior Squad point: subjectively, there is a vibrant junior chess community across the UK (albeit yes it would be good to have some metrics and trend data on participation - especially amongst females - to help inform policy. No doubt such data is readily available if someone cared to collate them from published results). But there is a large gap right now perceived by some parents (including me) which is at the elite level; hence the Junior Squad proposal. Pulling statistics from FIDE's rating site highlights that we are behind similar nations.

[Adam Raoof]

It seems to me, as someone who isn't involved with junior chess but has a hopefully objective overview, that this is the situation;

There are a lot of excellent people and organisations that have 'nothing' to do with the ECF, attracting funding, organising junior events - some running them very well and making large profits, some not so successfully and getting by. There are organisations that seem to have a relationship with the ECF because the people who govern those bodies are also connected with the ECF in some capacity. There are some organisations that will have nothing whatsoever to do with the ECF (probably wisely, though I hope that will change), and yet it seems there is a relationship between the ECF and the opportunities it provides those organisations - to grade events, to train arbiters, to award national titles for example. The ECF is not enterprising enough in using its right to award those titles to encourage more juniors to join the ECF, to have games graded, to play at longer time limits in conditions that are better preparation for competition at national and international level. The ECF trains coaches, who hope to make a living from coaching, and the ECF does not do enough to provide continuous professional training for coaches and require an annual fee as well as membership of the ECF.

The ECF itself organises the British Championships, and some junior events, I am not aware of the whole range.

It appears to me that the ECF is not being enterprising enough at the British in using its right to award national titles to encourage more entries from juniors. One possibility is to offer all these competing events the right to award X qualifying places to the British, rather than it being a right (except perhaps by rating) to enter any junior event. In return the ECF might expect events to be graded, and participants to be members of the ECF or their national body such as the WCU or Chess Scotland. It's just an idea - juniors could join at a substantial discount. Or events could meet minimum standards and pay a registration fee to the ECF / etc. We could do with a more formal structure for junior chess, without the ECF taking on more than they can chew. We are doing what we can to bring events under the umbrella of the ECF in a way that benefits everyone.

I think competition is very healthy, and whilst I don't think there is enough competition between junior events to raise the quality of those events I believe the ECF can encourage development. Recognising that the ECF is objectively not in a position to take on the huge amount of work involved in organising junior events, that the ECF could be doing more for players who show promise, and who are caught in the gap between playing in junior events, and stretching out towards FIDE titles in future.

For instance the idea of a 'ECF Junior Squad' to me would be to raise money, to organise 'elite' training events, invite Dvoretsky and Yusupov and other well-known trainers to give seminars, to give the ECF badge of approval to quality events and encourage participation in those events through the ECF Grand Prix as part of a selection process.

[LozCooper]

In no real order here are some observations I saved as a draft e-mail on 6th March when I was hoping to be able to apply for both Junior and International. As I now know I am unable to do both I've no problem with sharing these thoughts to see what public opinion is on them. I've deliberately not amended any of them even though some may be less relevant now.

1) world trial & JR gp: current format only really suitable for u8, u10, u12 over two days - maybe have 6 rounds over 3 days

2) introduce 5 day 9 round fide rated event (maybe one age section) for u20, u18, u16, u14 etc using same time limit as event you are qualifying for!

3) operate grand prix based on london chess classic, hastings, e2e4 (9+ round events to count double the 5 round) based on performance rating

4) qualification from terafinal

5) introduce English Junior Squad which is open to absolutely everyone regardless of grade/rating/age etc under 20 who is an ecf member

6) arrange inter country matches seperately from glorney, faber etc

7) JD to select coaches for euro, world, glorney etc

arrange junior trip to european individual alongside coaches

9) 50% or more in previous years event to be sent the following year

Research best time of year to hold trials, weekend & 5 day schedules

Consult with parents about all possible ways of qualifying, offer highest rated/graded in addition? venues? dates?

Ask Claire for her thoughts on qualification process

Ask parents what they think the JD should be doing (organising) etc

World Junior
World Youth
Euro Youth
World Youth U16 Olympiad
World Schools
EU Youth Rapid & Blitz
EU Youth (clashes with W Jun?)

Ask other countries for their method of selecting who goes:

Ecuador: select the national champion of each category

England: Winner of selection tournament goes to World, other events decided by Grand Prix.

France: Championship results from France, but also notable performances during the season, or the Elo rating. Instead the championships of France is not an exclusive criterion.

Players who did not participate in the championships of France but with international results were outstanding as Maxime Lagarde, 3rd overall in the world, can be integrated into the France team.

Members of the France team youth represent France at the world championships and / or Europe for young people and, where appropriate, attend training courses organized by the federation.

Ireland: http://www.icu.ie/icu/junior_eligibility_criteria.php and then we pick the best players from our rating list. Selection done.

Italy: select the national champion of each category in italy the champion has the right to choose between the world and european. if he chooses the world then the 2nd place goes to the european or vice-versa. Unlimited number of juniors can go but will pay everything. Federation will provide coaching.

Luxembourg: Selection by committee. Minimum rating required to apply.

Netherlands: National championship and also players over a certain rating eg 2550 for u20, 2400 u16, 2200 u14, 2100 u12 etc Minium ratings required to go for the qualifiers/champions etc

Scotland: Selection by committee (8 members) chaired by director of international junior chess. Obvious picks done well in advance to allow kids to best arrange their schedule. Big advantage over ECF is that grading is updated after each event so grades are visible and any manipulations of the system are transparant.

Wales: judge the players on latest gradings and performance in major tournaments played in Wales. We have a very small number of players and we thus know all the candidates quite well, so this is not as chaotic as it sounds. Also, it is often a case of who can we persuade to play, rather than which of many candidates do we select?

[Krishna Shiatis]

In no real order here are some observations I saved as a draft e-mail on 6th March when I was hoping to be able to apply for both Junior and International. As I now know I am unable to do both I've no problem with sharing these thoughts to see what public opinion is on them. I've deliberately not amended any of them even though some may be less relevant now.

1) world trial & JR gp: current format only really suitable for u8, u10, u12 over two days - maybe have 6 rounds over 3 days

2) introduce 5 day 9 round fide rated event (maybe one age section) for u20, u18, u16, u14 etc using same time limit as event you are qualifying for!

3) operate grand prix based on london chess classic, hastings, e2e4 (9+ round events to count double the 5 round) based on performance rating

4) qualification from terafinal

5) introduce English Junior Squad which is open to absolutely everyone regardless of grade/rating/age etc under 20 who is an ecf member

6) arrange inter country matches seperately from glorney, faber etc

7) JD to select coaches for euro, world, glorney etc

arrange junior trip to european individual alongside coaches

9) 50% or more in previous years event to be sent the following year

Research best time of year to hold trials, weekend & 5 day schedules

Consult with parents about all possible ways of qualifying, offer highest rated/graded in addition? venues? dates?

Ask Claire for her thoughts on qualification process

Ask parents what they think the JD should be doing (organising) etc

World Junior
World Youth
Euro Youth
World Youth U16 Olympiad
World Schools
EU Youth Rapid & Blitz
EU Youth (clashes with W Jun?)

Ask other countries for their method of selecting who goes:

Ecuador: select the national champion of each category

England: Winner of selection tournament goes to World, other events decided by Grand Prix.

France: Championship results from France, but also notable performances during the season, or the Elo rating. Instead the championships of France is not an exclusive criterion.

Players who did not participate in the championships of France but with international results were outstanding as Maxime Lagarde, 3rd overall in the world, can be integrated into the France team.

Members of the France team youth represent France at the world championships and / or Europe for young people and, where appropriate, attend training courses organized by the federation.

Ireland: http://www.icu.ie/icu/junior_eligibility_criteria.php and then we pick the best players from our rating list. Selection done.

Italy: select the national champion of each category in italy the champion has the right to choose between the world and european. if he chooses the world then the 2nd place goes to the european or vice-versa. Unlimited number of juniors can go but will pay everything. Federation will provide coaching.

Luxembourg: Selection by committee. Minimum rating required to apply.

Netherlands: National championship and also players over a certain rating eg 2550 for u20, 2400 u16, 2200 u14, 2100 u12 etc Minium ratings required to go for the qualifiers/champions etc

Scotland: Selection by committee (8 members) chaired by director of international junior chess. Obvious picks done well in advance to allow kids to best arrange their schedule. Big advantage over ECF is that grading is updated after each event so grades are visible and any manipulations of the system are transparant.

Wales: judge the players on latest gradings and performance in major tournaments played in Wales. We have a very small number of players and we thus know all the candidates quite well, so this is not as chaotic as it sounds. Also, it is often a case of who can we persuade to play, rather than which of many candidates do we select?

WOW Loz!!!!!

At last!!!!

This is the kind of stuff we would hope that a Junior Director should be doing. I do not know how long it took for you to come up with these ideas, but this is great.

Many of these ideas do not cost money and I am sure many are self funding.

It is the beginning of something good and a really excellent spring board for discussion and progression. You have looked at what the parents have said, you have thought about it and found possible solutions - that is all we really ask. How hard was that really?

I hope your fellow board members are taking note.

Also, I would like to say that I agree with Adam also. His ideas for revamping the British from the point of view of the juniors are very good.

How about Adam and Loz take on the role of JD together? I think that they would make a formidable team.

I know the rules state that as you already have positions you can not also be JDs, but there is a way of dealing with this. You could do the role together with somebody like David Howell as a figurehead JD. Adam and Loz could attend the board meetings and David (who I know is busy at Cardiff) could be there for advice, possible training and to attend/prize give on blue-ribboned events.

All three of you are keen to help the juniors, you have a lot of knowledge, contacts and experience between you all and you hold the respect of juniors, adults and parents alike.

What do you say?

[LozCooper]

It didn't take long at all, I was killing time at the World Youth Trial in between rounds. I was hoping to be able to stand so didn't want to give away too much of my thinking but now I am happy to suggest anything to anyone in the hope my ideas can be of use to anyone wishing to stand.

I realise a lot of my post was linked to selection and that is only one small part of the JD role but it was one of the most talked about topics at the time.

I am happy to help in any way I can but equally I don't want to be seen as interfering or overpowering anyone wishing to stand so think I should keep in the background while being happy to offer any assistance if needed. Some people may see my ideas as complete lunacy and be compelled to stand so they can stop them happening

[Krishna Shiatis]

It didn't take long at all, I was killing time at the World Youth Trial in between rounds. I was hoping to be able to stand so didn't want to give away too much of my thinking but now I am happy to suggest anything to anyone in the hope my ideas can be of use to anyone wishing to stand.

I realise a lot of my post was linked to selection and that is only one small part of the JD role but it was one of the most talked about topics at the time.

I am happy to help in any way I can but equally I don't want to be seen as interfering or overpowering anyone wishing to stand so think I should keep in the background while being happy to offer any assistance if needed. Some people may see my ideas as complete lunacy and be compelled to stand so they can stop them happening

Having a vision is always a good thing because it gives you direction. Selection is important and really, once the issues around this are sorted, much of the rest of junior chess should flow. The problem at the moment is that junior chess is being strangled at the top and this is having a knock-on effect onto everything else.

I can not think of any sane person who would want to stop your ideas. Now that you have said them, people cannot say that the parents are mad for thinking them also, nor that we are selfish, nor that we know nothing about chess and should not say these things. You have said in one go what we have been trying to say all along.

As Sabrina has also said, we do have to work together to fix this. It is going to require a team to work together. This is why the role of Junior Director should really be talked about at the highest level and about how best to achieve this. How about something along the lines of the following:

JD: Say David Howell GM (figurehead role)

Possible Deputy JDs: Loz C IM, Adam R, Sean H, Scott F, Jack R IM, Sabrina C, all the other GMs/IMs who I have mentioned before who have kindly offered their help,

Before anyone says that these are too many and they could not all turn up, all the deputies would not need to have to come always, just as and when they can. As long as there was a core group who are happy to come regularly.

Parent volunteer committee helpers: Ask for, say 5 who have skills - organisation, communication, administrative, legal and financial, IT, contacts and chess know-how.

This committee could meet up as and when and discuss and decide what to do (starting with Loz's ideas above). They could provide feed-back to the ECF about what they decide. It would divide the role of JD so that one person does not have to do everything and does not feel overloaded.

I am not wanting to put anyone into any positions they do not want, it is just a possible thought about the kind of committee which could exist and how it might help.

(Apologies to anyone I might have missed.)

[andrew martin]

So who is going to apply to do the job ?

A lot of suggestions, but are there any candidates?

[Krishna Shiatis]

So who is going to apply to do the job ?

A lot of suggestions, but are there any candidates?

If the ECF were to secure a solid team behind the JD role first (possible example above), then I suspect a few more people might stand forward for the role (including David himself).

You might then get a healthy debate and election, rather than 'oh there was only one person who applied and that's that.'

There needs to be definition at the top for what is required from the JD as well as a vision for the future(see Loz's comments).

Securing the support and help of the parents is essential and will ensure the participation of the juniors for a long time to come.

Finally, working together, listening and making decisions together will ensure that everybody is happy and allow everyone to feel that what is being done is the best that can be done.

[LozCooper]

So who is going to apply to do the job ?

A lot of suggestions, but are there any candidates?

That's the million dollar question

[andrew martin]

I don't think it's even a question of a million pence at the moment, is it?

The new Director will certainly have to be extremely realistic as to what can be acheived.

[Paul Sanders]

Part of the purpose from my perspective of going to the trouble to make some suggestions and get a discussion going was to highlight the need for the ECF as an organisation to accept responsibility for junior chess policy, and take away the arbitrariness that is a result of allowing each JD to do what they like.

And as part of the private and public discussions what emerged was a willingness to fund activities, and a recognition that relying on volunteers is inherently weak no matter how well intentioned they may be. Hence the proposal for a funded programme with professional administration.

As a parent I do get rather fed up with hearing over and over what a nightmare we are to deal with, and how there are no resources available, and how our children are immoderate consumers of such ECF resources as there are. All of these are completely out of order in my opinion.

A well thought out survey would bring forward a lot of very useful information, which would I hope support the positive suggestions that have been discussed here and at Sunningdale and other places recently.

[Krishna Shiatis]

And as part of the private and public discussions what emerged was a willingness to fund activities, and a recognition that relying on volunteers is inherently weak no matter how well intentioned they may be. Hence the proposal for a funded programme with professional administration.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with your point that relying on volunteers is weak.

I am not entirely sure if you are referring to your afore-mentioned Junior Squad or the role of JD.

With regards the role of JD, for the amount of work involved in formulating a national strategy, organising training and seeing it through to the level required for many children - not just the elite few, maintaining databases, administrating participation in International tournaments and everything else a JD would be required to oversee, you would not be able to pay several people a decent wage - unless you are planning on raising hundreds of thousands.

In contrast, if you had volunteers, you could keep costs down and they would be there for the right reasons ie to help (we hope)

As part of a children's chess organisation which relies completely on volunteers (we do pay the chess professionals) - which happens to run successfully though not always smoothly, we are able to keep costs down and therefore ensure more participation. If we were to start paying everyone, only the rich children would be able to play (unfair!), it would not work and pretty soon, that would be the end of the organisation.

Using volunteers would mean that any funds raised by the Junior Organiation would then go directly to the chess professionals, and/or be used to help chess infra-structure and/or to help the children directly.

[Adam Raoof]

As part of a children's chess organisation which relies completely on volunteers (we do pay the chess professionals) - which happens to run successfully though not always smoothly, we are able to keep costs down and therefore ensure more participation.

Which organisation is that, Krishna?

[Sabrina Chevannes]

Krishna

I am not sure that that is the right approach you are suggesting, as sometimes too many cooks spoil the broth and it has to be people who all want the same things - the best for junior chess and can work together well and who regularly talk to each other and work with each other. E.g. They were not encouraging the joint role of Jovanka and I for Managers of Women's chess but we talk to each other everyday on the matters and get on extremely well under working conditions and we knew this before we took on the role. It was majorly discussed before we stepped forward.

Also, with David Howell, he is an amazing role model to the children - I couldn't agree more, but he would not be someone who should stand for JD. He is a professional chess player and we want him to stay that way as he is one of our country's finest, but he would need to concentrate on his own development and would not have time to run junior chess for England.

But yes, the role needs to be split I think, by people who are great organisers, have amazing enthusiasm and want the best for the juniors

[Krishna Shiatis]

As part of a children's chess organisation which relies completely on volunteers (we do pay the chess professionals) - which happens to run successfully though not always smoothly, we are able to keep costs down and therefore ensure more participation.

Which organisation is that, Krishna?

Hi Adam,

That would be Kent Junior Chess Association and (edited later) the unofficial training arm of KJCA - ACES (Academy for Chess Excellence and Skills).

K