Junior Chess matters (elsewhere) for those interested!

[Angus McDonald]

Taking this off the Mureck thread because I don't want to confuse anyone interested in reading about what is 'alleged' to have happened there.

Also, I think Carl has been very patient to allow me a chance to at least say something. Something which was denied to me on the Chess Scotland Noticeboard where numerous attempts to repspond to wrongful accusations were blocked by the moderator/s

So Geoff, you are showing an interest and advising them how to moderate and I actually agree with most of that advice? but!

Why do you think they would block my attempts to answer?

TIA

[Peter D Williams]

I am interested in this subject Angus.

Answers should not be blocked we should debate issues!

[Roger de Coverly]

Answers should not be blocked we should debate issues!

You might want to define what the issue is. Was this thread about the AGM proposal to adopt a policy to remove advance notification of Chess Scotland's intention to send teams to events and inviting expressions of interest? To English eyes, that looks absolutely bizarre, as there's no real way selectors could know who might be interested in a foreign opportunity and could make themselves available. Perhaps with a smaller pool of potential players, all the likely candidates are known.

There was a long English debate about retaining a "free place only" policy, with the resolution being that the ECF would adopt a "many" approach with the numbers sent to events limited only by the participants being of a sufficient strength, affordability, convenience of destinations and availability of coaches. Unless the host has unlimited sponsorship, there are never any free places anyway. The host will finance the tournament and "free" places by signing hotels at wholesale prices and then selling them on at a margin to trainers, parents, extra players etc. That's why they almost invariably insist on teams only being allowed to stay in the official hotel and eat the "official" food.

Without the constraint of having to offer "free" places, both the 4NCL and e2e4 get very competitive prices for hotel accommodation alongside their events. English hotels seem to react favourably if you offer to fill them for a weekend.

[Peter D Williams]

"There was a long English debate about retaining a "free place only" policy, with the resolution being that the ECF would adopt a "many" approach with the numbers sent to events limited only by the participants being of a sufficient strength, affordability, convenience of destinations and availability of coaches. Unless the host has unlimited sponsorship, there are never any free places anyway. The host will finance the tournament and "free" places by signing hotels at wholesale prices and then selling them on at a margin to trainers, parents, extra players etc. That's why they almost invariably insist on teams only being allowed to stay in the official hotel and eat the "official" food."

I understand the commercial reasoning behind this, nonetheless that does not in my opinion excuse the poor quality of the food.

On the 2 occasions I was (in the capacity of a parent) part of the England Junior Team I think the food was substandard, in one instance it was bearable if interspersed with meals from elsewhere but on the other occasion it was inedible and after the 1st evening and breakfast meal I knew I had to make other arrangements. I asked for tea and was given prune juice – perhaps they knew I would be needing some after eating their food

These trips are very expensive for the parents and probably cost more than a family holiday in the same hotel, I didn’t feel they were good value for money when I was advised of the cost we would be expected to pay and most definitely didn’t after sampling the delights of said hotel


Having to cope with substandard food or go off and locate alternative means puts extra pressure on the parents and children when all they really want to do is get on with the job in hand. Perhaps one solution would be to arrange the accommodation as bed and breakfast fixed and additional meals if required that way we would have all the options and could chose which best suits us. I don’t want anyone to think that we eat luxury food because we don’t even when we treat ourselves but a decent meal should be a given on these trips. I think it is also difficult for the Team Managers because unless I am wrong their hands are tied and to complain to the Hotel would be futile, so everyone (except me) ends up doing the stiff upper lip bit and gets on with it – therefore as nobody complains there is no need to do anything.

As most families we are on a budget so to be faced with this unexpected cost in another country was quite a shock – we were fortunate in that Carol had just had a modest lottery win so we were able to use those funds, however that meant that she was unable to purchase the new furniture she had planned – at least I got out of shopping for it!

One thing I did notice was that some other Federations appeared to be staying in better hotels. Does anyone know how the allocation of hotels is made?

[Roger de Coverly]

On the 2 occasions I was (in the capacity of a parent) part of the England Junior Team I think the food was substandard, in one instance it was bearable if interspersed with meals from elsewhere but on the other occasion it was inedible and after the 1st evening and breakfast meal I knew I had to make other arrangements. I asked for tea and was given prune juice – perhaps they knew I would be needing some after eating their food

The quality of hotels and their food is obviously going to vary by destination and country, probably by hotel group within country. Reports appearing in the ECF Yearbook of trips abroad often seemed to have more about the meals than the actual chess. I'd presumed that was because the reports were written by arbiters , but perhaps there's more to it.

I'm not aware that the ECF maintains any formal records of feedback on the quality of hotels and their food. In some cases, it wouldn't be helpful as events aren't always in the same place. Perhaps the best that can be done is to find out the name of the proposed hotel and see whether there are adverse comments on the mainstream tourist sites.

It can be a problem for adult events as well. The European Championships have been known to follow the same model of "official" hotels at enhanced prices. This practice has been bitterly complained about by the Grandmaster fraternity and doesn't usually apply in western European venues. The problem is that most bids and awards go to Eastern Europe, Greece or Turkey and delegates voting on these issues don't appear willing to challenge bids which rely on overpricing accommodation for their financial viability.

[Angus McDonald]

Peter,

I've heard others complain about the food at these events but I've always enjoyed the hotel food at the 3 venues I've been at.
Probably says more about my diet than anything. Enjoyed the Pizza we had together in Montenegro which was a nice change.
Just wish that Peter was still playing at these events because he's in a group of about 3 or 4 British Juniors who could make a real impact at these events in the future. That would be good for himself, his country and Chess.
It's this Parents/Child thing again. There are some strange agendas going on when Parents arn't actively encouraged to be involved in their own children's lives. I don't want to reopen this Peter but the truth should never be swept under the carpet never to be seen again. It should be aired occassionally. It's almost like the surrogate parent, the state, resents the close involvement!?

all the best,

Angus

[Angus McDonald]

I see a man of integrity has had the guts to say it as it is on the Chess Scotland noticeboard.

Perhaps the rights of the wee man will be upheld? against the hand of those who stamp on the rights of others with their feeling of power.

[Angus McDonald]

Comment about officials understanding the public duty and responsibility of their position.

Being an office bearer in an organisation means you have to have higher standards than ordinary
members. It means that rather than always telling members what their responsibility is that you
yourself are acutely aware of your own responsibility.

e.g. A moderator of a Forum should not push their electoral politics on the forum they moderate.
That is obvious to all. It has happened though in elsewhere land. Guess what I don't agree with
their politics and have said so. I support Great Britain, team GB and The Union. Proud to be Scottish
and proud to be British. If they wish to moderate they actually have to keep quiet about such things
instead of forcing their opinion on others. Why? Because their position as moderator is a 'representative'
one and is a privileged one. I know these things because I was brought up to understand them.

Angus Wallace McDonald

[Peter D Williams]

Peter,

I've heard others complain about the food at these events but I've always enjoyed the hotel food at the 3 venues I've been at.
Probably says more about my diet than anything. Enjoyed the Pizza we had together in Montenegro which was a nice change.
Just wish that Peter was still playing at these events because he's in a group of about 3 or 4 British Juniors who could make a real impact at these events in the future. That would be good for himself, his country and Chess.
It's this Parents/Child thing again. There are some strange agendas going on when Parents arn't actively encouraged to be involved in their own children's lives. I don't want to reopen this Peter but the truth should never be swept under the carpet never to be seen again. It should be aired occassionally. It's almost like the surrogate parent, the state, resents the close involvement!?

all the best,

Angus

Hi Angus

I too enjoyed the Pizza, hopefully we can do the same one day.

I don't think Peter will play in these events again - never say never but I think the moment has passed.

I guess you and I make the same mistake in thinking that most parents do actually know best for their children contrary to the state and popular belief

[Angus McDonald]

Was this thread about the AGM proposal to adopt a policy to remove advance notification of Chess Scotland's intention to send teams to events and inviting expressions of interest? To English eyes, that looks absolutely bizarre, as there's no real way selectors could know who might be interested in a foreign opportunity and could make themselves available.

Roger, thanks for your interest. This is how the acting director canvassing availability and a number of other people saw it also.

Actions which seek to include are normally good and is far better than a policy which can result in exclusion in my opinion.
It can be argued with technicalities from both sides though but it was not worthy or criticism in my mind. e.g. being available and
actually being selected are 2 different things. When I run the College Football team I always asked around about availability before a game at the weekend. Nobody thought that being asked was a guarantee their name would be on the team list on the Thursday.
Further, I criticised the fact that this motion which was critical of the way another director was running things was seconded by The Chess Scotland President.

He should have been seeking to resolve this privately if there was indeed an issue allthough, the issue seems trivial compared with some others to me. In fact I've never seen the President second a motion criticising the actions of another director in any other organisation I've been a member of.

I also said, that the President (all being outgoing, which actually makes it worse in my opinion(my opinion) seconding a motion criticising the actions of one of his directors sets a dangerous precedent.
Actions clearly designed to bring the sponsors in in droves.

I stand by what I have said.

Angus

[Angus McDonald]

I too enjoyed the Pizza, hopefully we can do the same one day.

Sounds good! Just name a tournament Peter and we'll try to be there. Perhaps an E2E4 event.
We enjoyed the Jubilee one at Gatwick recently. I know what you mean by the time passing.
lamentable that Peter didn't have more opportunities. Still he's one heck of a player and hopefully
that is consolation.

Angus

[Geoff Chandler]

Hi Angus,

Sorry about the delay I just noticed this.

"Why do you think they would block my attempts to answer?"

I have no idea, I never saw any of the CS thread.

Maybe you were doing a me and tossing petrol on the fire.

Parents threads tend to get very heated and I know from
past experiences (though I've never been banned) they like to keep things toned down.
I recall having a massive row with Jacob over the right of the current
Scottish champion to be automatically offered a seat on the Olympiad plane.
I got a warning on that one...(me and JA remained friends throughout it)

Maybe you let slip in a personal remark.
I don't know I never saw any of it.

Two choices.
Invite all the parents from CS across here to continue it.
Get over it. Dust yourself off and live to squabble another day.

Don't leave the forum. Then they (who ever they are?) win.

[Angus McDonald]

Geoff,

Thanks for your response, I will think about what you have said.

With the right open structure I don't think the parents would squabble.

If everything is done fairly I can think of few parents who would squabble over a result.

If a pluralistic system is developed clearly focussed on involving all the talents rather than

a few trying to keep all power and control to themselves,which requires dividing and ruling to work,

then I think most parents would get on famously.

[Philip Thomas]

Reality check here needed ECF notice board readers. The car crash thread on the Chess Scotland (CS) notice board had very little to do with the rights and wrong of the motion.

I returned to Scotland on Sunday evening and considered the postings on the notice board. Far too many of which were personal attacks on my wife.

I posted late that evening. I described the whole thread as a text book example of cyber bullying aimed at my wife. Nobody went public to disagree with me.

I told the cyber bullies that I would do what hurt them most. In return for the personal attacks upon my wife I announced (and did so in the same posting) that I would release true facts about them to their peer group because they have their deep dark secrets that they wish to keep hidden..

All of those bullies including Angus failed to dispute the factual accuracy of my posting. All except Angus showed public signs of atonement.
Angus was different he launched into stronger and more personal attacks upon my family and allegations about my previous actions. So strong that the whole thread was pulled. Sadly that means that my key post is no longer available for the public to read.

Let us return to my words to Angus that night and expand a little on the theme a little.

Chess Scotland has had a standard committee for three years. Complaints are normally time barred to a 42 day limit but in the case of Angus I offered to waive my right to that 42 day period.interest of fair play. Angus I say it again PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

To the ECF readers of the boards I offer this advice….If you find yourself disagreeing with Angus. Save the whole of his quote asap and quote it in full. He has a nasty habit of changing posts soon after delivering the intended message.

A fact for readers to consider. Angus requested that he be removed as a registered user of the CS notice board. He was not been banned, he asked to go.
He has gone. Imho Scotland’s gain is England’s loss

ANOTHER FACT.
The CS notice board has two moderators Andrew McHarg and Andy Howie. The Angus situation and the thread on Motion 4 have been handled solely by Andrew McHarg. Andy Howie had actually declared a conflict of interests. Angus attacked the inactive moderator. Just like many threads on the CS notice board it is a great shame when facts get in the way of an exciting theory.


ANOTHER FACT.
Attacks on Andy Howie on the ECF notice board will draw no response from Andy Howie. I know this , but Angus doesn’t ….. he does now

Lastly an opinion and a promise. I postulate that the remit of the CS standards committee extends to postings on the ECF forum. If a sufficient number of CS members mails me privately to protest about Angus’s postings here then I will take action and refer the issue(s) to the CS standards committee.

[Carl Hibbard]

I postulate that the remit of the CS standards committee extends to postings on the ECF forum.

I have no idea what happened over on the Scotland forum and to be honest I really don't care

I am however bored that this sort of nonsense has spilled over from one forum to the other, next person to do this just gets a bar so I don't have to read any more of this story