Titles in Junior Events

[Kevin Thurlow]

http://www.chessbase.com/Home/TabId/211 ... 70613.aspx

where apparently titles are available in a six-round event...

"They play in an open, where it is possible to earn CM, FM and IM titles without the usual requirements of norms and ratings"

This strikes me as wrong. Even I had a 2600+ performance over 5 games in one tournament (the 6th player turned out to be unexpectedly unrated), but I would have thought it ridiculous to get a title based on so few games.

[Roger de Coverly]

"They play in an open, where it is possible to earn CM, FM and IM titles without the usual requirements of norms and ratings"

The European Junior events award titles as prizes to the top three in each age group.

I think the ASEAN event is nine rounds rather than six

http://14thaseanagegroupchess.com/tourn ... s-results/

[Stewart Reuben]

Apart from the European Club Cup, I believe the minimum number of rounds is 9 for norms. ECC has been 7 for many years.
BUT it is possible to get CM titles in the Olympiad with 3.5/7 and FM title with 5/7.
In zonals it is certainly possible to get the IM title without even having a rating at the conclusion of the event. But there are no zonals in Europe. The non-norm titles are referred to as direct ones. CM and FM are based mainly on getting the required rating.
Although the rules don't state it, only females can be awarded the WCM, WFM, WIM, WGM titles.

[Greg Breed]

"They play in an open, where it is possible to earn CM, FM and IM titles without the usual requirements of norms and ratings"

The European Junior events award titles as prizes to the top three in each age group.

I think the ASEAN event is nine rounds rather than six

http://14thaseanagegroupchess.com/tourn ... s-results/

In this instance, I would suggest a prefix before each of "Junior" or something similar to indicate that it is a "prize" rather than the real thing.

[Stewart Reuben]

Greg Breed
>In this instance, I would suggest a prefix before each of "Junior" or something similar to indicate that it is a "prize" rather than the real thing.<

That wouldn't be agreed within FIDE. There are too many people with vested interest in the power of these awarded titles.

[Greg Breed]

Greg Breed
>In this instance, I would suggest a prefix before each of "Junior" or something similar to indicate that it is a "prize" rather than the real thing.<

That wouldn't be agreed within FIDE. There are too many people with vested interest in the power of these awarded titles.

So in effect it's all politics?! It's sad that politics always gets in the way of things...

[LawrenceCooper]

Greg Breed
>In this instance, I would suggest a prefix before each of "Junior" or something similar to indicate that it is a "prize" rather than the real thing.<

That wouldn't be agreed within FIDE. There are too many people with vested interest in the power of these awarded titles.

So in effect it's all politics?! It's sad that politics always gets in the way of things...

Politics and money. I recall seeing e-mails from FIDE along the lines of "Player A has qualified for the CM title, please confirm that you will pay for it"

[Greg Breed]

Greg Breed
>In this instance, I would suggest a prefix before each of "Junior" or something similar to indicate that it is a "prize" rather than the real thing.<

That wouldn't be agreed within FIDE. There are too many people with vested interest in the power of these awarded titles.

So in effect it's all politics?! It's sad that politics always gets in the way of things...

Politics and money. I recall seeing e-mails from FIDE along the lines of "Player A has qualified for the CM title, please confirm that you will pay for it"

Seriously?! That would make a mockery of the titles system! Let's say i've got some dosh lying around and i fancy an FM or IM title. I slip it over to FIDE who give me the title so now i get free entry into tournaments with my IM title and i'm still only 1700 rated. Farcical!

[Roger de Coverly]

Seriously?! That would make a mockery of the titles system! Let's say i've got some dosh lying around and i fancy an FM or IM title.

You have to qualify by results or rating as well. Not all players who have achieved 2300 take up the FM title. There must be hundreds of British players entitled to the CM title, only a relative handful claim it.

I'm aware that FIDE are reintroducing time limits for claiming IM and GM norms. Does the same apply to CM and FM titles? It's obvious enough when the published rating goes above 2200 or 2300, but you can also claim the title if your "live" rating ever exceeds these values. So you start the tournament at 2180 and gain 15 points, then you can claim a CM title if you score +25 over the first few games of the tournament, even if it's -10 for the rest.

[Peter D Williams]

Seriously?! That would make a mockery of the titles system! Let's say i've got some dosh lying around and i fancy an FM or IM title.

You have to qualify by results or rating as well.

Not if your a Junior you can be awarded a title but have not reached the chess rating that every one else has to get.

Peter applied for his title when he had reached the correct rating.Which in my view is the only way you should get a title.

[Roger de Coverly]

Not if your a Junior you can be awarded a title but have not reached the chess rating that every one else has to get.

It is usually results based as it depends on finishing in the top three of a tournament awarding titles as prizes.

There's historic precedent. Fischer became a Grandmaster by qualifying from an Interzonal for the Candidates Tournament.

[Greg Breed]

Not if you're a Junior you can be awarded a title but have not reached the chess rating that every one else has to get.

Peter applied for his title when he had reached the correct rating.Which in my view is the only way you should get a title.

This is my point. Awarding a title as a prize to a junior (or anyone for that matter) when their strength of play is not indicative of that title makes it meaningless. Good on Peter for doing it the proper (IMHO) way!

It is usually results based as it depends on finishing in the top three of a tournament awarding titles as prizes.

There's historic precedent. Fischer became a Grandmaster by qualifying from an Interzonal for the Candidates Tournament.

I think every chess player globally would agree that in that particular instance it was well deserved and indicative of the strength of the player. Someone good enough to qualify for the Candidates Tournament, to decide the challenger for the World Champion, must surely be as strong as the other contenders who are most likely to be Grandmasters themselves!

[Greg Breed]

If a Junior wins or places in a Junior Tournament and FIDE want to award titles as prizes then those titles should be Junior Titles. Surely that makes sense?...

[Christopher Kreuzer]

It is usually results based as it depends on finishing in the top three of a tournament awarding titles as prizes.

There's historic precedent. Fischer became a Grandmaster by qualifying from an Interzonal for the Candidates Tournament.

I think every chess player globally would agree that in that particular instance it was well deserved and indicative of the strength of the player. Someone good enough to qualify for the Candidates Tournament, to decide the challenger for the World Champion, must surely be as strong as the other contenders who are most likely to be Grandmasters themselves!

If you look here:

http://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html? ... w=category

You can compare the old regulations with the new ones. I hope the old ones are left online somewhere (without causing confusion), as keeping a full record of past regulations may not have been done (or at least not left online). Direct titles and title norms are now explicitly defined in the new regulations:

"Title norm is a title performance fulfilling additional requirements concerning the mix of titled players and nationalities as specified in articles 1.42 to 1.47."

"Direct title (automatic title) is a title gained by achieving a certain place or result in a tournament. For example, winning, or achieving a result ≥50 percent in a tournament. On application by the player’s federation and confirmation by the QC, such titles are awarded automatically by FIDE."

The direct titles (lots of them) are here:

http://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html? ... ew=article

If you qualify to play in the World Cup, you are made an IM. If you reach the last 16, you are made a GM. No mention of the Candidate Tournament route, though I think the way qualification for that is set up, all those qualifying in other ways are already GMs, though technically someone could achieve a high enough rating to qualify without being a GM, it is unlikely. It may be impossible, but I'm not sure.

More in an earlier thread here:

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 30#p105314

And useful historical info on the GM title regulations here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmaster_%28chess%29

[Peter D Williams]

[quote="Greg Breed"][

This is my point. Awarding a title as a prize to a junior (or anyone for that matter) when their strength of play is not indicative of that title makes it meaningless. Good on Peter for doing it the proper (IMHO) way!

I agree with you and thank you for saying that about Peter.Its very rare Peter gets a decent word said about him from the chess world cheers