Attitudes

[Sean Hewitt]

I received the following email recently

Please remove my details from your mailing lists.

I was disappointed by the large number of juniors in your recent Easter event, and so will know to avoid e2e4 events in future.

and interested to hear forum thoughts on the views expressed therein.

[Mike W. Richardt]

I think that is quite harsh.

Don't get me wrong - playing juniors isn't great for most players as they are under rated and take your "precious" ECF or FIDE points away.
So I can see why some players react to that fact.
However playing tournaments around school holidays you are in danger playing chess with a lot of youngsters.

I do think that the expressed view above must be in the minority???

[MSoszynski]

I received the following email recently

Please remove my details from your mailing lists.

I was disappointed by the large number of juniors in your recent Easter event, and so will know to avoid e2e4 events in future.

and interested to hear forum thoughts on the views expressed therein.

Above all, you should be pleased to receive frank feedback.

Now, whether adults, veterans and seniors want to spend their weekends away among "a large number of juniors" is up to them.

[Mike Truran]

It's interesting that the number of juniors in the 4NCL's Division 3 seems to me to be increasing rapidly (two of my three opponents at the final weekend were juniors, and very good they were too).

I can see nothing but good in such a development. How else are they going to get the standard of chess they need if not in events like the 4NCL and e2e4 tournaments? Moreover, their behaviour is generally between very good and excellent - and if there are a few rough edges here and there, that can surely be forgiven them at their age? I was so impressed by the behaviour of my final round opponent (13 years old) that I emailed his team captain to tell him so.

This jaded and crusty senior for one is delighted at the breath of fresh air the juniors bring to the 4NCL. It seems to me that for the most part their manners are at least as good as (and sometimes better than) their adult counterparts.

[Michael Farthing]

Well two days ago I sent a message saying I wouldn't compete in a tournament because it excluded juniors...

This shouldn't even be in debate.

How would everyone react to:

Please remove my details from your mailing lists.
I was disappointed by the large number of Jews in your recent Easter event, and so will know to avoid e2e4 events in future.

[MSoszynski]

Well two days ago I sent a message saying I wouldn't compete in a tournament because it excluded juniors...

This shouldn't even be in debate.

How would everyone react to:

Please remove my details from your mailing lists.
I was disappointed by the large number of Jews in your recent Easter event, and so will know to avoid e2e4 events in future.

That is unfair. How might a parent feel about their young junior joining a club very largely of older adults? Surely, it is not unreasonable for them to seek out a club with more juniors. Why then can't adults/seniors do the equivalent?

[MartinCarpenter]

Excluding juniors from a non seniors event would be exceedingly daft. For the actual person, well, I can imagine that the lower/middle reaches of that sort of event might get slightly tiring if dominated by hordes of juniors. Or maybe they're just precious about their FIDE rating?!

Whatever you can't complain if people don't play in events they're not enjoying

The juniors in Div3 of the 4NCL all seemed very well behaved. The ones I saw in 3C's 2 didn't even really play like stereotypical juniors. I mean look at this position from Jorvik - 3C's 2 (not my game) with black to move:
r1bn1rk1/pp4pp/2pb4/3p1q2/B2Pp3/4B2P/PPPNQPP1/2KR1R2

Still gently astonished, and a bit impressed, that the junior playing black resisted playing b5/a5 etc here. Yes it does seem rather strong this time, but that isn't the point! There were some others in the analysis room later on happily working away at king and pawn endings.....

[John Upham]

The attitudes and behaviours of almost all juniors playing in e2e4 and & 4NCL events are, on average, significantly better than many adults in local league matches.

Both e24e4 & 4NCL continue to set the best standards for competitative chess in England. The rest are playing catch-up.

If you want to see badly behaved "children" then visit some of the lower divisions in local leagues and observe some of the adults in action.

[David Gostelow]

It was a typical chess players communication , to the point but not diplomatic. Personally the situation reminds me of the old Woody Allen line " I am not afraid of death , I just don't want to be there when it happens" To me the more juniors in these tournaments the better (for chess) just please don't match them against me in the draw (lol) . Many games of hard work building up a nice FIDE grade was destroyed by mediocre results against a few under rated juniors in a later tournament.

Also they are usually far to confident and not nervous enough, and will not agree draws just because they are in a better position.

Perhaps the grading system is at fault (I think there are pages on that already) or perhaps we can have a new pairing system , that gives you a junior quotient of say only one per tournament

[Ray Sayers]

I found it quite a sad email.

I am assuming that the author played at least one of these Juniors and didn't do well (else why complain?).

I found Michael Farthing's comments spot on. What do you complain about next - Gender? Colour? Dress Sense?

Most Juniors I have played behave well. They fidget a bit, but are generally quiet, don't read a newspaper at the board, don't make snorting noises, don't bang the pieces arrogantly and so on (we have all played adults like that!).

If a Junior pays their entry fee, they have just as much right to play as anyone else (otherwise how do they improve?).

I thought people played in tournaments to play chess and not to worry about the age of their opponent.

[Jonathan Rogers]

Well hang on people, not wanting to play juniors can hardly be compared with not wanting to play the unemployed or people of a different race, etc. If the objection to playing juniors is purely based on their notable tendency of being significantly under-rated, then one can see where the complainant is coming from, even if one doesn't agree (of course I don't*).

What surprises me is that he thought it necessary to share his complaint with Sean. To what end? Did he expect Sean to agree and to consider different entry conditions in future in order to tempt him back? Surely not.

* Mind you, my Elo is about to fall below 2300 for the first time since 1992 or so, and thus an "I don't care about my Elo anyway!" approach is only to be expected

[MSoszynski]

What surprises me is that he thought it necessary to share his complaint with Sean. To what end? Did he expect Sean to agree and to consider different entry conditions in future in order to tempt him back? Surely not.

This is a completely wrong-headed attitude to customer relations. Feedback should be sought and encouraged - in order to learn what people really think. You or I may be disappointed by other people's views, but it's important to be aware of them. We won't learn anything from being back-slapped by like-minded people.

Feel free to disagree. If you do, you'll have the same attitude to me as to Sean's complainant.

Meanwhile, Sean was sufficiently preoccupied with the matter to post it on a forum. Sean might consider whether the tourney has, is getting, or deserves to have/get a reputation for "a large number of juniors" - and whether that matters either way. Sean might further consider whether there is enough encouragement for veteran/senior competitors. He may well come to the conclusion that actually no changes are necessary, after due thought.

[Jonathan Rogers]

I think you are too quick in labelling this matter as "customer feedback". For me, the most useful kind of feedback is something which one can actually use to change or improve things in future, but when people mention things which clearly cannot be changed, I often think they are moaning and not giving "feedback". So it is useful for me when my students give feedback along the lines that I don't outline the facts of some cases very clearly - that is feedback, even if it is a minority view. But when they complain that my subject is compulsory or that classes had to be rearranged for different times because of weather conditions or illness, they are just moaning and I wonder why they bother. I tend to think of Sean's complainant as being in the latter category. He is moaning. What on earth does he expect Sean to be able to do with his complaint?

[MSoszynski]

I think you are too quick in labelling this matter as "customer feedback". For me, the most useful kind of feedback is something which one can actually use to change or improve things in future, but when people mention things which clearly cannot be changed, I often think they are moaning and not giving "feedback". So it is useful for me when my students give feedback along the lines that I don't outline the facts of some cases very clearly - that is feedback, even if it is a minority view. But when they complain that my subject is compulsory or that classes had to be rearranged for different times because of weather conditions or illness, they are just moaning and I wonder why they bother. I tend to think of Sean's complainant as being in the latter category. He is moaning. What on earth does he expect Sean to be able to do with his complaint?

I hinted at what Sean might do - if the issue deserves it. Juniors get all kinds of fee reductions and extra prizes. Just possibly, veterans as well as seniors might merit something similar (to a much smaller degree, inevitably). But that's for each organizer to contemplate for themselves with respect to their own competitions. Feedback should aid, not determine, those contemplations.

Of course, if you only want to hear the kinds of criticisms that you want to hear... then you will indeed be left wondering "why they bother". Other people, eh? Moaning Minnies!

[Richard Bates]

Are an excess of juniors a particular feature of e2e4 events (as opposed to, say, events over the Easter weekend)? Better steer clear then!

Back to Paignton this year. Apologies in advance to my opponents on my youth