Penalty for an Illegal Move in a Rapidplay Game

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Michael Flatt
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Penalty for an Illegal Move in a Rapidplay Game

Post by Michael Flatt » Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:39 am

Junior Organisers and Chess Parents need to be aware of the change introduced in July 2014 to the FIDE Laws of Chess regarding the penalty for an illegal move in Rapidplay games.

Appendix A Rapidplay

Law A.4

b. An illegal move is completed once the player has pressed his clock. If the arbiter observes this he shall declare the game lost by the player, provided the opponent has not made his next move. If the arbiter does not intervene, the opponent is entitled to claim a win, provided the opponent has not made his next move. ...

The key point is that the infraction needs to have been observed by the arbiter.

The second point is that the opponent can make a claim if the arbiter does not award the win.

If the arbiter has not observed the incident and the players are in disagreement as to whether it has happened or not the arbiter cannot award a win. The arbiter needs evidence to be able to award the win.

To my mind, implementing this in ALL junior competitions seems rather too severe given that many juniors are less than confident in their play.

Presumably, if the children don't play with clocks the situation will never arise!

Do any Junior Organisers have any thoughts on this?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Penalty for an Illegal Move in a Rapidplay Game

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:49 am

Michael Flatt wrote: Presumably, if the children don't play with clocks the situation will never arise!
Illegal moves will certainly arise. The question then comes as to whether it will result in a lost game. At the very least, the move should be taken back and a legal one substituted.

As a competition rule, you could always set aside that particular FIDE provision and make it so that the second illegal move lost, or not at all. If the illegal move is moving into check or not noticing a check, you have the other problem of whether it is allowed to indicate the illegality of the previous move by capturing the King. Arbiters have one of their many obsessions, like upside-down rooks, that capturing the King is itself illegal.

Steve Rooney
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Re: Penalty for an Illegal Move in a Rapidplay Game

Post by Steve Rooney » Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:22 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Michael Flatt wrote: Presumably, if the children don't play with clocks the situation will never arise!
Illegal moves will certainly arise. The question then comes as to whether it will result in a lost game. At the very least, the move should be taken back and a legal one substituted.

As a competition rule, you could always set aside that particular FIDE provision and make it so that the second illegal move lost, or not at all. If the illegal move is moving into check or not noticing a check, you have the other problem of whether it is allowed to indicate the illegality of the previous move by capturing the King. Arbiters have one of their many obsessions, like upside-down rooks, that capturing the King is itself illegal.
Presumably this is all rapidplay chess, not just juniors.

Is there a need for a comprehensive and sensible set of 'set-asides' from this and other FIDE rules which may not be helpful in the amateur game (including daft mobile phone laws)? Such a compendium could then be considered for adoption en-bloc by event organisers and local leagues.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Penalty for an Illegal Move in a Rapidplay Game

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:42 am

Steve Rooney wrote: Presumably this is all rapidplay chess, not just juniors.
This is all rapidplay, but it's just going back to the rules that applied before FIDE got involved. On the face of it, if making an illegal move will lose, this would encourage players to continue in lost positions, perhaps in the hope of the opponent missing a subtle check.
Steve Rooney wrote: Is there a need for a comprehensive and sensible set of 'set-asides' from this and other FIDE rules which may not be helpful in the amateur game (including daft mobile phone laws)? Such a compendium could then be considered for adoption en-bloc by event organisers and local leagues.

There used to be a set of BCF rules. These were necessary because the FIDE Laws of Chess assumed everyone was playing at 40 moves in two or two and half hours with perpetual adjournments. Once FIDE started taking an interest in more diverse forms of chess, the need for a separate BCF rulebook faded away and many of the FIDE Laws were originally adapted from their BCF predecessors. The wording of 10.2 as was being a case in point.

Given the increasing likelihood of daft FIDE Laws, re-establishing a separate English or British rulebook would have some merit.

Ray Sayers

Re: Penalty for an Illegal Move in a Rapidplay Game

Post by Ray Sayers » Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:27 am

I organise Junior competitions. I see rules like this, roll my eyes and have to remember to add it to the list of things I am NOT going to enforce.

'Sledgehammer to crack a nut' comes to mind.

I cannot imagine the chaos if kids who leave their king in check automatically lost the game. Well, actually I can.

Another stupid dictat.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Penalty for an Illegal Move in a Rapidplay Game

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:21 pm

The ECF has already issued "Comments for Arbiters on 2014 Laws". which include comments on "illegal moves" viz. it would not be advisable to enforce this for inexperienced players "indicated by age and/or grade", you should just give 2 minutes ( 1 min in RP) to the opponent "until the arbiter decides it is too distracting". But the entry form should say if this would apply.
As an aside, I'm always puzzled that there is a common view that juniors graded 180+ might be unaware of the Laws and therefore should be allowed to get away with murder, just because they are aged under 18.

ECF also recognised that banning phones etc altogether from evening leagues and weekend congresses is not really an option, and that a compromise is to just say they must be switched off (or only switched on by agreement in an evening league game where you might be awaiting a player).

Steve Rooney
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Re: Penalty for an Illegal Move in a Rapidplay Game

Post by Steve Rooney » Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:28 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:The ECF has already issued "Comments for Arbiters on 2014 Laws".
Thanks Kevin, is this a public document?

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Penalty for an Illegal Move in a Rapidplay Game

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:31 pm

Well it's on the CAA (Chess Arbiters Association) website

http://chessarbitersassociation.co.uk/F ... mments.pdf

maybe it's a CAA document, but it talks about recommendations for England, so I guess ECF wouldn't disagree...

Michael Flatt
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Re: Penalty for an Illegal Move in a Rapidplay Game

Post by Michael Flatt » Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:34 pm

Steve Rooney wrote:
Kevin Thurlow wrote:The ECF has already issued "Comments for Arbiters on 2014 Laws".
Thanks Kevin, is this a public document?
I found it on the website of the Chess Arbiters Association.

It appears to be supplementary advice since it does not appear in the Laws annotated with CAA comments.

Reference: http://www.chessarbitersassociation.co. ... E_Laws.pdf

Supplementary Information (added).

The link to the CAA page (without opening the document) is: http://www.chessarbitersassociation.co. ... /laws.html
Last edited by Michael Flatt on Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Penalty for an Illegal Move in a Rapidplay Game

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:37 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote: ECF also recognised that banning phones etc altogether from evening leagues and weekend congresses is not really an option, and that a compromise is to just say they must be switched off (or only switched on by agreement in an evening league game where you might be awaiting a player).
Presumably this is a private communication to arbiters and not one to be publicly announced, even on the official forum. What does it say about FIDE rated tournaments? This can include Rapidplay and Blitz.

It's a logical and defensible position that mobile phones and other electronic devices should be switched off at the start of the game and remain switched off for the entire duration of play. I had always thought the second point followed from the first, but perhaps it needs to spelled out in detail. Allowing match captains to attempt to contact missing players is legitimate, but perhaps needs to be done before the captain has played any moves. If a phone rings to indicate a call or text, the penalty is that the device should be totally switched off, giving leeway for an oversight. If it rings again, that's deliberate and should cause a loss.

(edit) The CAA document isn't satisfactory since it doesn't recognise the practical issue that players may have phones and devices with them as a consequence of real life and should not be treated as infringing some Law however minor the penalty. It should also recognise that it's devices that can run chess software that should be the concern, rather more so than a device bleeping to indicate that it's received a text or running out of power. Admittedly that's because the owner neglected to switch it off, but evening leagues in particular have been reluctant to impose forfeits in such circumstances. We had a parallel discussion on the thread about cheating where the suggested line was that you would be defaulted if the phone was in your jacket or a bag and you put in on or picked it up.(/edit)

David Blower
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Re: Penalty for an Illegal Move in a Rapidplay Game

Post by David Blower » Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:16 am

What happens if a player makes an illegal move but does not press the clock as he/she realises that they have just made an illegal move?

Do they lose the game then?

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Penalty for an Illegal Move in a Rapidplay Game

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:44 am

David Blower wrote:What happens if a player makes an illegal move but does not press the clock as he/she realises that they have just made an illegal move?

Do they lose the game then?
No. The check for illegal moves triggers when a move is completed, not when it is made.

Lewis Martin
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Re: Penalty for an Illegal Move in a Rapidplay Game

Post by Lewis Martin » Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:22 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
David Blower wrote:What happens if a player makes an illegal move but does not press the clock as he/she realises that they have just made an illegal move?

Do they lose the game then?
No. The check for illegal moves triggers when a move is completed, not when it is made.
So does this mean that (before pressing your clock) you can get away with moving the 'offending' piece back to where it was and then make a different move?

So for example, (it happened against me not so recently in a blitz game, and probably a common type) I have a White bishop on b3 and there's a black pawn on f7 and king on g8. (the c4, d5, and e6 squares are vacant) If Black 'played' f7-f5, and subsequently is about to press the clock but realises that there is a bishop on b3, could he then move that pawn back immediately to where it was and then make a different move (Kg8-h8 for example) without being penalised?

Ian Thompson
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Re: Penalty for an Illegal Move in a Rapidplay Game

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:54 am

Lewis Martin wrote:
IM Jack Rudd wrote:
David Blower wrote:What happens if a player makes an illegal move but does not press the clock as he/she realises that they have just made an illegal move?

Do they lose the game then?
No. The check for illegal moves triggers when a move is completed, not when it is made.
So does this mean that (before pressing your clock) you can get away with moving the 'offending' piece back to where it was and then make a different move?

So for example, (it happened against me not so recently in a blitz game, and probably a common type) I have a White bishop on b3 and there's a black pawn on f7 and king on g8. (the c4, d5, and e6 squares are vacant) If Black 'played' f7-f5, and subsequently is about to press the clock but realises that there is a bishop on b3, could he then move that pawn back immediately to where it was and then make a different move (Kg8-h8 for example) without being penalised?
You have the right to correct an illegal move before completing it, thus avoiding any penalty that would apply if you did complete it. You could be penalised under Law 11.5 though, although I think it's unlikely you would be for a one-off incident.

Mike Gunn
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Re: Penalty for an Illegal Move in a Rapidplay Game

Post by Mike Gunn » Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:12 am

You do (of course) still have to move the originally touched piece if it is possible to male a legal move with it. (Which isn't the case in Lewis's example.)

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