New junior chess club in Harrogate

National developments, strategies and ideas.
Andrew Zigmond
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New junior chess club in Harrogate

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:44 pm

A new junior chess club has opened locally and is already oversubscribed which can only be a good thing. I attended the first night on behalf of the adult chess community and was asked to say a few words which was surprisingly scary.

Obviously the long term goal is to build bridges between the junior club and the adult club which given that the average age was about eight isn't going to happen overnight (the club is open to older children but none have yet joined). What I want in the short term is making sure the organiser (clearly an excellent but by her own admission not a strong player) has all the resources and contacts she could possibly need.

Any tips? We have the acorn, now all we need to do is grow the oak.
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David Blower
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Re: New junior chess club in Harrogate

Post by David Blower » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:26 pm

What grade is the player? Also what type of things happen? Is it just simply playing games against each other or is specific coaching done?

Also are tournaments (either internal or external) against other clubs arranged? Is it a chess club where players can notate, and things like the touch move rule is strictly enforced, and clocks are used, or is it just beginners who have only recently learnt the rules of the game?

I wouldn't say you need to be a great player (although clearly you do need to know a bit about chess.) But more importantly is the sense of fun, enjoyment, and the fact that there will be interaction between children.

At Brewood we have a club handicap tournament, (both players get 10 minutes, however a lower graded player also gets 1 minute extra per grading point difference, up to a maximum of 1 hour) it is ungraded.

Key thing is you need more than one adult doing everything. If that one adult is delayed at work, in traffic, (gets hit by a bus) the chess club does not go ahead that evening! It also shares the load.

You also need to try and separate the children based on their ability levels, (such as in congresses you have a Swiss System etc,) this may not have to be actually having a tournament to decide this.

Oh and good luck with it.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: New junior chess club in Harrogate

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:52 pm

The lady running the club has (to the best of my knowledge) never played a competitive game of chess and thus obviously ungraded. I believe she started teaching chess to the lower school of a local primary school while a local player teaches the upper school - this was how she got involved with the local primary schools association. Realising there was a gap in the market for a local junior club she started one. I understand she is a retired teacher and knows enough about chess to teach basic tactics (pins, skewers, development in the centre etc).

From what I saw tonight she paired those children who already knew how to play and then spent some time teaching the children who were new to the game in a group environment. She has other adults, mainly parents, to help with supervision.
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David Blower
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Re: New junior chess club in Harrogate

Post by David Blower » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:39 pm

That seems fine to me. To me its about 90% (maybe even 95%) about interaction between the adults running it, and the children. There is nothing that children like better than other children. Only about 5%-10% is about the technical chess (some may say even less than that percentage!)

I have seen some good graded players and yet they get nothing through to the children.

The important thing is to remain patient. Children will make mistakes. (As do I in my graded matches.) They will end up losing matches if they play competitively. Why do I say this? Simply because there is a believe that players from the main chess club (such as yourself) are "professional chess players." Therefore they believe that they will turn professional, and end up making a living from chess! Whilst of course there is good prize money at the top level of the game, simply blurting out: "your be world champions," is not something I would be comfortable with.

As I said, fun and enjoyment is in my mind the key. Once they start to improve, they tend to enjoy it more.

There is only one thing we do insist on at Brewood and that is players are expected to shake hands before the game has started, and afterwards when it has finished, regardless of the result. This shows sportsmanship and respect towards the opponent. This is quite obvious, but it is in my mind a good habit to get them into.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: New junior chess club in Harrogate

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:20 pm

Just revisiting this post as there have been a few (positive) developments. The new junior club has bedded in well and there was a good write up in the local paper. The one disappointment has been how few players from the adult chess club have taken an interest. I try to get there when I can (I've missed two sessions, one due to illness and the other due to work) but I'm the only one making an effort to support. I'm not trying to be a martyr here but it's only an hour out of my week and I think it's important. All she really needs are bodies for when she has five hands up in the air wanting to know if they've got checkmate.

Anyway the question now is how to progress things. The organiser was initially reluctant for the children to be invited to enter events (there was a junior tournament in York recently) as she didn't want to give the impression the club was about pushing children. That said and now that the club has settled down - most of the children are still learning but there are three boys who show promise and could benefit from being stretched. Obviously there are a lot of different junior chess organisations out there, it's just a case of finding the right one to engage with.

I have a horrible feeling I might end up having to coach the better players. I can barely think of anybody less well qualified!
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Alan Kennedy
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Re: New junior chess club in Harrogate

Post by Alan Kennedy » Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:01 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Any tips? We have the acorn, now all we need to do is grow the oak.
Lots. A good place to start is getting the parents involved by getting them to read Tim Onions books on the opening, middle game and endgame. That will encourage the parents to play against the children at home. The next book after that which we found helpful in Witney was winning chess tactics for juniors. We used to work through a problem each club night. Get adults playing juniors and after every mistake say Why did you do that and then allow them to take the bad move back. It teaches them to think. get them doing puzzles as much as they can at home. the quizes published by chess kids are really good as well. Dont forget your child protection policy - again Witney chess club has a template which basically makes the parents responsible for the care of their children. Make contact with the local schools and invite them to a beginners tournament. Witney chess club has a resource list at http://bit.ly/WsYbY1 which i hope you find helpful.

Richard James
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Re: New junior chess club in Harrogate

Post by Richard James » Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:17 am

You might also want to encourage parents to read my book The Right Way to Teach Chess to Kids.

Nick Grey
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Re: New junior chess club in Harrogate

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:28 am

Excellent book & one point that RJCC as well as Junior Chess in Schools in SCCA got right was to make the club night a Friday night for matches.
Best wishes.

David Blower
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Re: New junior chess club in Harrogate

Post by David Blower » Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:29 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
I have a horrible feeling I might end up having to coach the better players. I can barely think of anybody less well qualified!
You don't need to be an expert chess player, I would say it is more to do with being nice etc.

Anyway the question is what is your lowest team you run at Harrogate, and would the three children you describe be competitive in that team?

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: New junior chess club in Harrogate

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:00 pm

Firstly thank you to everybody who has replied. I'll definitely check out some of the books recommended.

Just picking up on David Blower's post it is my qualifications with dealing with children that are the problem, not my chess qualifications!

The age range at the club is generally 8-9 and at that age children tend to want to play rather than be taught (to be honest I think that will come when they enter a tournament and lose games to players who know their openings). Some do attend a primary school where the club's top player coaches an after school class on the same day.

The children wouldn't be competitive in Harrogate's C Team in the Yorkshire league as that team has gone up a division.
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J T Melsom
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Re: New junior chess club in Harrogate

Post by J T Melsom » Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:42 pm

I'd welcome observations from those who have managed to integrate juniors into adult leagues about the appropriate age for doing so. Its difficult to generalise, but I suspect that only in exceptional circumstances is it sensible to select a primary school child. Its not just about the chess ability, but the emotional maturity as well. And whilst we can readily identify with the difficulties of playing chess after a day at work, the late nights after a day of school are far from conducive to good chess. I think there is a temptation to rush juniors into chess that isn't suitable. One thing we've tried is to encourage them to play in our internal event in their initial season - no travelling and more familiar faces so less intimidating. It has helped identify those with a real interest and aptitude.

David Blower
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Re: New junior chess club in Harrogate

Post by David Blower » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:45 am

J T Melsom wrote:I'd welcome observations from those who have managed to integrate juniors into adult leagues about the appropriate age for doing so. Its difficult to generalise, but I suspect that only in exceptional circumstances is it sensible to select a primary school child. Its not just about the chess ability, but the emotional maturity as well. And whilst we can readily identify with the difficulties of playing chess after a day at work, the late nights after a day of school are far from conducive to good chess. I think there is a temptation to rush juniors into chess that isn't suitable. One thing we've tried is to encourage them to play in our internal event in their initial season - no travelling and more familiar faces so less intimidating. It has helped identify those with a real interest and aptitude.
I'd welcome the same input from someone as well.

We have an 8 year old, currently in year 4 at school, that we are thinking about putting into one of the club's teams. He probably has an estimated grade within the 70s.

Alan Walton
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Re: New junior chess club in Harrogate

Post by Alan Walton » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:43 am

At 3Cs we normally endeavour to get the children playing adult leagues as soon as possible, depending on their ability and not their age

The weakest are normally put into the Bury & Rochdale league team (which is a slightly weaker league compared to the Manchester League)

Then they move up into the grade limited league in the Manchester League, then eventually move up into the main league teams (though these are mainly playing 3rd and 4th teams, and the odd lower board for the 2nd team)

Currently we have a dozen under 14s playing in the main Manchester League

Michael Flatt
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Re: New junior chess club in Harrogate

Post by Michael Flatt » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:37 am

Although our junior and adult clubs are on the same night with one immediately preceding the other there is very little cross-over between them. The juniors, essentially primary school aged children, need supervision both for their own safety and also to discourage them from being too silly. There are one or two Juniors, out of a group of 20, who stay on for the Adult club to play in a ladder competition (15 minute games) and that has been quite successful.

So far, I don't recall many of our juniors having played in any adult league matches. Adult league matches aren't scheduled to finish until 10:30pm at the earliest which is far too late for children needing to be at school the next day. An adjacent club does have occasional juniors in their teams but they tend to be in the early years of secondary school and better able to cope with the occasional late night.

Our junior club has been running for about 15 years and it has become noticeably more popular in the last three years when there have been sufficient adult supervision to allow it to grow. The number of juniors attending has doubled and we are somewhat embarrassed by having to run a waiting list which seems to grow year on year.

We are very lucky to that the lady who heads the club first became involved when her two sons took up chess and she continues to do so now that the boys have gone onto university and graduated. My involvement has been very recent and now more of the adult members from the higher teams are willing to do a little coaching once or twice a month.

Children do need competition to encourage them to progress. The problem is setting it at the right level. The annual Delancey UK Schools Chess Challenge is ideal since the level of opposition increases as it progresses through each of the rounds.

We are also fortunate to have a good choice of weekend junior competitions. Up till Christmas it is possible to play virtually each weekend in a different qualifying tournament for the London Junior Chess Championships. Some of the more capable children then take part in the Golders Green monthly Rapidplay, which provides the challenge of playing against adults. Some juniors also play for the county junior association team in the English Primary School Association competitions.

It does seem that academic demands are increasing on children which causes them to tail off their chess playing at secondary school unless, of course, they lucky enough to attend a school which participates in school competitions. Even primary school children are regularly set homework which was unheard of not so many years ago.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: New junior chess club in Harrogate

Post by Roger Lancaster » Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:10 pm

Our juniors, almost 30 of them, with a waiting list of 12 and lengthening, is located geographically quite close to that of Michael Flatt (see above post, where I suspect we're the "adjacent club" Michael has in mind) so our experience is broadly similar. Maybe we have slightly stronger juniors - eight or nine of our juniors are rated ECF100+ standardplay - so there's probably a higher measure of integration with our adults although of course late bedtimes are an issue in the case of evening inter-club matches. As to ages, only nine of our juniors are aged 10 or over and the relative shortage of older children suggests Michael is right in believing that other pressures at secondary school level often freeze chess out. One other relevant point, I suggest, is that it's much easier to attract children to an existing club (where they know they will meet other chess-playing kids) than to persuade them to be the first members of a new club where, initially at least, few turn up.