English Primary Schools Chess Association

National developments, strategies and ideas.
Paul McKeown
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Paul McKeown » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:04 am

I have no intention of getting into a public row with Alex Holowczak.

I will point out, however, where he is materially incorrect, particularly where his errors have already been pointed out, but he chunters on regardless.

I will start out by quoting him directly:
Richmond shouldn't exist as an EPSCA Association
AH says that RJCC only takes part in primary level competition. It is entirely incorrect to say that an institution like RJCC only caters for primary school aged chess.
  • Our attendance last Saturday was 69 young people, of those, 17 were post primary.
  • We enter U14 teams in the Southern Counties Chess Union Championships as a "Non County Member"; indeed, as Essex U14 will happily attest on our behalf, we even happily engage in friendly fixtures at short notice when other "real" counties fail to raise teams.
  • We enter teams in the Southern Counties Jamboree at U14 and U18.
  • Indeed we are hosting the SCCU Jamboree later this month, on the Sunday following the EPSCA Girls U11 Final, which we are also hosting.
  • We entered the NYCA last year, but not this year. Our playing strength is not quite yet at the standard where it makes sense to travel 200km on a Sunday morning and 200km back in the evening (or even further on a Saturday); however, our strength in depth at post primary level is growing quite rapidly and we will certainly give some thought again next year to taking part, perhaps at U12 or U14 only. We have given some thought to this, and are prepared to propose to the NYCA that we could stage the competition, like the EPSCA competitions in two stages, with a zonal stage and a final stage. Richmond would be very happy to host a southern zone. You can be certainly be sure that the number of teams participating would increase.
  • We also hold ad hoc friendly matches against other teams, whether counties, clubs or other types of institution.
  • We will be hosting the Southern Gigafinal this year, over two days in July, with hundreds of children participating today aged from U7 to U18.
The only post-primary competition that Richmond does not take part in is the ECF Counties Junior Championship. We would happily do so, and made enquiries last year about the possibility, but were firmly told that we would not be allowed, as at least one county (which seems inactive this year) would object.

Pretending that Richmond is sui generis is foolish; there are various other non-county entrants in the EPSCA Inter-Association Championship. Without looking up the exact details, I suspect that if non-county entrants were banned, you would remove teams that have provided perhaps half of the winners and runners up over the 51 years of EPSCA's existence, including Barnet who are currently regular winners.

Returning to Alex's statement:
Richmond shouldn't exist as an EPSCA Association
I can only say that for a board member of EPSCA he is remarkably ignorant of EPSCA's constitution, which I recommend he reads before spewing forth any further nonsense. It is formed of "Associations", not counties.

Is AH really saying that Barnet, Birmingham, Gloucestershire South, North Wales, Oldham, Tameside, Wey Valley and Wirral should be removed from the competition, alongside Richmond?

And where is this "Middlesex" team, that he writes of? If he insisted on carrying through such a "counties" only reform, then any newly formed Middlesex team formed from Barnet and Richmond would be a total blockbuster which would entirely dominate the competition for the forseeable future, to the detriment of the competitive nature of the events, and would see lots of children lost from the events, too, as the number of places for them would be halved. That is assuming that the organisers of the existing teams would be happy to work for a different organisation foisted on them per administrative ukase.

One further point, I should make. AH seems to have worked himself into a ferocious lather about EPSCA simply because the venue for the U11 Final, originally intended to be held in the Midlands fell through. Richmond volunteered to host the final at fairly short notice, which caused AH to whine about the event being hijacked by southerners, and how the travel might well prevent him from raising a Warwickshire team. Then when Oldham's bid to host the final was ultimately accepted, the whining changed into how this was even worse and how difficult it was going to be for Warwickshire. Strangely, I haven't heard any such moaning from any of the teams from the South of England, all of whom, including Richmond are undoubtedly happy to congratulate Oldham on rescuing the event at fairly short notice, and all of whom will be happy to travel to the north to take part, should their teams qualify from their zonal stages. The final of a prestigious national event involves travelling. Who knew?

I cannot understand the motivation of an ECF director, when his words and indicated agenda seems determined to undermine the efforts of hard-working and successful junior organisers. I would suggest that a period of reflection and consultation with those actively involved in organising junior chess in a collegiate manner would bear more fruit.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:14 am

"http://www.epsca.org.uk/rules/teamrulesregs.pdf wrote:
10. At the semi finals and finals, appeals may be allowed but after one unsuccessful appeal, further appeals in that round by the same association on any other board, must be accompanied by the fee of £1.00 if the appeal is successful."

Thanks Alex - that is a classic. On the other hand, I will probably now spend hours looking for other examples.

Interestingly, EPSCA refused to allow a non-county organization to join them a few years ago, giving the reason that the organization was not a county. Presumably, that rule only applies when they feel like it! Obviously any body can refuse applications to join, but they really ought to give a real reason, even if it's, "we don't like you".

Alex Holowczak
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:27 am

I don't think I've worked myself into a ferocious lather about EPSCA this year as a result of the venues of the Final changing from those advertised. I entered into it this year with an open mind. The schools event was great. I think the Inter-Association event is comparatively poor. Some of the rules have apparently not been looked at for years, and I think there is a problem with associations, some of which stop at age 11 and then disappear. Richmond clearly isn't too bad in this regard, but what happens in Tameside after age 11?

I got put on EPSCA Council because I turned up to the meeting. I had no interest in being on it. If someone else wants to fill the spot I took, then I'll happily stand aside. The pre-requisite seems to be going to the AGM though.

I don't understand why Paul selectively quotes me. What I actually wrote included "Either that, or Richmond should be affiliated to the ECF as a county in its own right within the ECF." My point is that the geographic units should be the same all of the way through, and it doesn't really matter what they are. That way, Richmond could enter the ECF county event too, and not have to risk upsetting Middlesex.

The topic of conversation in that thread was Richmond because the conversation was being had with Richard, and then latterly with you - who are connected to Richmond. I am not pretending it is alone in this regard. I would have used a different example had I been speaking with people connected with that different example.

Paul McKeown
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Paul McKeown » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:44 am

If "Richmond shouldn't exist as an EPSCA association" is removed from the table, then I am immediately happy to accept "Richmond should be affiliated to the ECF as a county in its own right within the ECF." Richmond would, of course NOT be a county, but an NCM, just as in the SCCU. It would also be a great credit to the ECF and provide a ready pool of strong and enthusiastic young players.

I am not sure where Tameside is, nor who its organisers are. I am happy, personally, to go there for a week in the summer to help them set up a post primary structure, should they be interested. Some help with regard to travel and subsistence would be welcome in that case.

If someone wanted to nominate me to the EPSCA Council on behalf of Richmond, I would accept.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:01 am

Paul McKeown wrote:If "Richmond shouldn't exist as an EPSCA association" is removed from the table, then I am immediately happy to accept "Richmond should be affiliated to the ECF as a county in its own right within the ECF." Richmond would, of course NOT be a county, but an NCM, just as in the SCCU. It would also be a great credit to the ECF and provide a ready pool of strong and enthusiastic young players.
Richmond may already be sort-of affiliated as a Congress by virtue of the Richmond Rapidplay. It may well have been once upon a time, but lapsed when the Rapidplay lapsed. I'm not sure. Either way, if you filled in the white form, re-affiliating in that way should be a slam dunk. You may even get that done in time for the April Council meeting.

But the ECF county event is open only to the county members, with the Greater Manchester county organised by the Manchester Chess Federation that subsumed it, but that's affiliated a constituent unit. So Richmond couldn't play in the county event unless they were affiliated in that way.
Paul McKeown wrote:I am not sure where Tameside is, nor who its organisers are.
It's in the general area of Greater Manchester. They may already have secondary school activities - I don't know. My question was a genuine one.
Paul McKeown wrote:If someone wanted to nominate me to the EPSCA Council on behalf of Richmond, I would accept.
I've no idea how that works, but turning up to the Council meeting seems to be the way to guarantee success! :oops:

David Sedgwick
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:07 am

Mike Truran wrote:One of the things that has struck me in my short tenure as CEO is the lack of jurisdiction that ECF has in all sorts of areas - and (if I may be controversial) the seeming reluctance of various organisations to risk relinquishing what they see as their own power base for the greater good of English chess.
That lack of jurisdiction is causing a number of problems, not least because it is hampering the ability of the ECF to deal effectively with cheating cases.

Why are chess organisations resistant to giving the ECF greater jurisdiction?

Because they fear that the ECF will then seek to undermine or destroy organisations which have developed over decades and impose their own "superior" models.

One could scarcely imagine a more graphic illustration of this than Alex Holowczak's remarks about Richmond Junior Chess Club, one of the most successful English chess bodies of the last 50 - 75 years.

Back in the 1990s, when I was the President of the SCCU, a BCF Director sought to dictate who could or could not participate in SCCU competitions. My colleagues and I told him to get stuffed.

I am confident that EPSCA will now say the same to Alex Holowczak.
Alex Holowczak wrote:I got put on EPSCA Council because I turned up to the meeting. I had no interest in being on it. If someone else wants to fill the spot I took, then I'll happily stand aside.
That's just as well. I think that you have just ensured that you won't be on the EPSCA Council for very long.

Mike Truran
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Mike Truran » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:07 pm

Ouch.

David Sedgwick
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:28 pm

Mike Truran wrote:Ouch.
I'm trying to curb my addiction to Diet Coke, at least temporarily, by giving it up for Lent. :shock:

Hence I'm currently suffering from the effects of going cold turkey. :x

You and other readers are hereby warned to be prepared for further posts in similar vein from me while that situation persists.

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David Shepherd
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by David Shepherd » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:44 pm

Could someone clarify what the team is that is entered in the EPSCA competition?

The team plays under the name Richmond - so is it RJCC club or the London Borough of Richmond?

David Sedgwick
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:47 pm


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David Shepherd
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by David Shepherd » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:57 pm

Thanks David so from the link Richmond includes

Hammersmith & Fulham
Hounslow
Kensington & Chelsea
Merton
Richmond-upon-Thames
Wandsworth

and not just Richmond junior chess club.

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David Shepherd
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by David Shepherd » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:59 pm

David Shepherd wrote:Thanks David so from the link Richmond includes

Hammersmith & Fulham
Hounslow
Kensington & Chelsea
Merton
Richmond-upon-Thames
Wandsworth

and not just Richmond junior chess club.
So a question to Paul is - would Richmond pick a player that was not a member of Richmond junior chess club?

Ps I noticed above that a point was raised about follow on from the U11 teams, I would like to point out that when I was organising the Surrey junior teams for the older age range, the organisers of RJCC were most helpful in identifying which of their players were eligible to play in the Surrey teams and more than happy for their qualifying players to be selected and play for Surrey in the county competitions. In turn I was very happy to select their players and tried to give as many players from the whole of Surrey as many opportunities to play as I could. The co-operation of the Richmond organisers made this goal far easier to achieve so thanks are due to them.
Last edited by David Shepherd on Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:10 pm

"I'm trying to curb my addiction to Diet Coke, at least temporarily, by giving it up for Lent.

Hence I'm currently suffering from the effects of going cold turkey. "

Good luck - I'm trying to work out what the equivalent of methadone is...

Richard James
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Richard James » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:15 pm

David Shepherd wrote:
David Shepherd wrote:Thanks David so from the link Richmond includes

Hammersmith & Fulham
Hounslow
Kensington & Chelsea
Merton
Richmond-upon-Thames
Wandsworth

and not just Richmond junior chess club.
So a question to Paul is - would Richmond pick a player that was not a member of Richmond junior chess club?
Answering on behalf of Paul, yes, we can and do.

In the past (up to the mid 2000s, when I took a break from RJCC) the Richmond team was mostly members of RJCC, along with some players from schools in the Borough of Richmond upon Thames.

Now, about half the members of our EPSCA teams are RJCC members: others come from schools or other, smaller junior chess clubs (for instance Fulham Junior Club) within our designated area.

Richard James
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Richard James » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:17 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:...Richmond Junior Chess Club, one of the most successful English chess bodies of the last 50 - 75 years.
Thank you for your kind words, David.