Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

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NickFaulks
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Postby NickFaulks » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:36 pm

Can anyone lipread? Clearly Aronian did have a bit to say at the time and it would be interesting to know what. Perhaps "not with me you don't, young man"?

Mike Truran
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Postby Mike Truran » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:42 pm

he 'probably did' touch the king

:lol: :lol: :lol:

NickFaulks
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Postby NickFaulks » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:59 pm

just for a second or two, no big deal

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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Postby Michael Mkpadi » Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:26 pm

Ray Sayers wrote:
Basically says it's not a big deal, he 'probably did' touch the king and blames Levon for making a big deal of it.



"...probably..." I'd change that to certainly Mr. Hikaru Nakamura. Video cameras don't lie
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Nick Burrows
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Postby Nick Burrows » Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:07 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Nick Burrows wrote:I think you are reading a way too much into this episode. Nakamura apparently moved on from that episode faster than you.

In Italy there's a saying that some people see dishonesty and mischief everywhere only because they know those all too well.


I think you are defending your hero :wink:

If by "moving on" you mean "avoid discussing" then I agree with you.

My fat old momma used to say "It takes a cheat to know a cheat, but honest men can perceive them too"

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Postby Roger de Coverly » Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:24 pm

A similar incident in an amateur event was discussed here a couple of years ago

viewtopic.php?t=6338&start=30#p134670

Aronian, quite rightly, was not prepared to accept that a deliberate attempt to play a move could be j'adoubed out of existence. It's unlikely he was aware of a Blackpool precedent, but probably would have recalled the Zurab incident.

James Byrne
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Postby James Byrne » Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:27 am

For anyone interested, GM Alex Yermolinksy made some insightful comments about this incident during a recent chess.com broadcast, his co-host GM Melikset Khachiyan also had some interesting things to say, especially given his past coaching of Aronian. Alex also gives an interesting anecdote regarding a similar incident happening in the 70s between Taimanov and Kochyev.

You can watch the replay of their discussion here on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/chess/v/55192615, skip to time frame 01:01:47 if you only want to listen to their discussion of the incident itself.

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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Postby NickFaulks » Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:59 am

Yermo is always a very valuable source, the Taimanov anecdote is brilliant. Kochyev might have been overawed by his opponent, but he wasn't. That's why I was so impressed with Kosteniuk's reaction, she nailed it down straight away. Perhaps Aronian went out of his way to mock Naka's j'adoube shtick, but if so I don't blame him.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Postby JustinHorton » Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:46 am

What was he saying about Karpov? (Just before the Taimanov story. I can't quite catch it. About 1.06.35. Can't work out the name of the opponent.)
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

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JustinHorton
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Postby JustinHorton » Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:03 am

This is the Taimanov-Kochiev game referred to, it's quite a nice error:

[Event "October Revolution 60th Anniversary"]
[Site "Leningrad URS"]
[Date "1977.07.11"]
[EventDate "1977.??.??"]
[Round "13"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Mark Taimanov"]
[Black "Alexander Kochyev"]
[ECO "A16"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "70"]

1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 O-O 5.e4 d6 6.Nge2 c6 7.O-O
e5 8.h3 Be6 9.d3 Qd7 10.Kh2 d5 11.exd5 cxd5 12.d4 e4 13.Bg5
Nc6 14.Bxf6 Bxf6 15.Nf4 Nxd4 16.Nfxd5 Bxd5 17.Nxd5 Bg7 18.Bxe4
Rfe8 19.Qd3 f5 20.Bg2 Re2 21.Rad1 Rd8 22.Rd2 Rxd2 23.Qxd2 Re8
24.Re1 b6 25.b4 Rxe1 26.Qxe1 Qe6 27.Ne7+ Kf7 28.Bd5 Nf3+
29.Kh1 Nxe1+ 30.Nc8 Nd3 31.b5 Qxd5+ 32.cxd5 Nxf2+ 33.Kg2 Ne4
34.Nxa7 Nc3 35.d6 Ke6 0-1

Position before 28. Bd5

[FEN "8/p3Nkbp/1p2q1p1/5p2/1PPn4/6PP/P4PBK/4Q3"] [SetUp "1"] *
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

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Clive Blackburn
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Postby Clive Blackburn » Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:25 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:A similar incident in an amateur event was discussed here a couple of years ago

viewtopic.php?t=6338&start=30#p134670

Aronian, quite rightly, was not prepared to accept that a deliberate attempt to play a move could be j'adoubed out of existence. It's unlikely he was aware of a Blackpool precedent, but probably would have recalled the Zurab incident.


If the Blackpool incident had been recorded on video and also observed by an arbiter then I am sure that a complaint would have been lodged! It was only the lack of independent witnesses that persuaded the wronged player to reluctantly accept the "adjusted" move.
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Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Postby Jonathan Bryant » Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:48 am

Clive Blackburn wrote:If the Blackpool incident had been recorded on video and also observed by an arbiter then I am sure that a complaint would have been lodged!


The sad thing for chess about the J’adoubeamura incident is not that it was recorded on video - broadcast live, for that matter - and still he tried to get away with it. It’s that he’ll be allowed to get away with the self-serving 'justification' in the interview that he gave two days after the incident.

A candidate for the world chess championship tried to cheat and then refused to accept responsibility for his behaviour. Indeed he actually blames his opponent.

No matter, he’ll be allowed to get away with it.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Postby JustinHorton » Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:02 am

It would be good if somebody asked him why it was, given that according to him "in the moment I certainly didn't feel like it" (""it" being having touched the king) he was proposing "j'adoube" in the first place.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

James Byrne
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Postby James Byrne » Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:48 pm

For those that haven’t seen it, IM Sagar Shah conducted a short 3 minute interview with Nakamura after he beat Topalov yesterday. They also briefly discussed his touch move incident with Aronian.

You can watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmDXMKTgZHE please note that at 1:55, Hikaru appears to criticise Aronian for his reaction to the incident. Make of that what you will.

Alistair Campbell
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Postby Alistair Campbell » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:01 pm

Martin Benjamin wrote: In general, snooker players and golfers are rigorous at owning up to any inadvertent infringements, even when not spotted by officials or TV cameras.

Hmm. I suspect that there is more cheating in golf than meets the eye.

MJMcCready wrote:Another odd thing about the Naka incident is that the king didn't actually need adjusting as it was already placed in the center of the square!

Back to the matter at hand, and generalising slightly, when do you ever see someone “j’adoubing?”

I would suggest:

1. At the start of a game. In particular make sure you point those knights in the right direction.
2. When a piece is accidentally displaced (“haha – I’m not resigning yet!” as you knock over your king reaching for your wine-gums)
3. Straightening up a piece that has just moved (often I see this in the order – move, press clock, adjust – which is a bit naughty)
4. Suddenly noticing a piece that is off-centre
5. Adjusting your opponent’s pieces – I think this may be a nervous tic – I know of one junior who does this a lot, but hopefully this will be “coached” out of him
6. When you realize you are about to blunder and are trying to get away with it.

In all bar one of these, either it is clear what is happening, and/or “J’adoube” or “adjust” is said well in advance of the action.

Some players may be more pre-disposed to adjusting pieces, even if they are centrally placed, but in general, once the game has started most players will centralise their pieces on the appropriate square. In short, calling “j’adoube” in arrears almost always would appear to be an admission of guilt. Is Naka a compulsive “j’adouber”?

People do strange things under pressure, and often things they regret. Do people “revert to type” as Nick says, or can such behaviour be “out of character”? Is it possible to convince yourself that you are innocent when you are guilty?

I think we are into the realms of psychology here, but this feels like someone is having difficulty coming clean.


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