How much does a game cost?

General discussions about grading.
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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: How much does a game cost?

Postby IM Jack Rudd » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:20 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Gareth Harley-Yeo wrote:And a big one that's close to the Sambuca heart right now, ECF membership for those who solely play 4NCL. The current full membership costs really put off some players but the fact they'd only have to pay the one option of £10 would make life much easier for quite a few captains I'm sure.


To the extent that they are allowed to declare themselves Welsh, they just join the WCU and play internationally as WLS.


Wales is pretty strict about that, though. There might be some other federations that aren't, mind you.

E Michael White
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Re: How much does a game cost?

Postby E Michael White » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:48 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:The YCF ChessNuts grading is excellent, but even they acknowledge that it couldn't be done properly without the ECF database.

Shouldn't Yorkshire be paying for the use of the ECF database ? If the ECF have produced ECF grades at a cost are they copyrighted in some way ?
It doesnt seem right that Yorkshire should financially piggyback in this way to produce their grades more cheaply.

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Re: How much does a game cost?

Postby Alex Holowczak » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:57 pm

E Michael White wrote:
Adam Raoof wrote:The YCF ChessNuts grading is excellent, but even they acknowledge that it couldn't be done properly without the ECF database.

Shouldn't Yorkshire be paying for the use of the ECF database ? If the ECF have produced ECF grades at a cost are they copyrighted in some way ?
It doesnt seem right that Yorkshire should financially piggyback in this way to produce their grades more cheaply.


I don't know enough about it, but we have no rights to either their use of the ECF grading algorithm, or their actual results. What of the ECF's are they actually using?

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: How much does a game cost?

Postby IM Jack Rudd » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:00 pm

I suspect the answer would be similar to that of Feist v Rural, and Yorkshire would win such a case.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: How much does a game cost?

Postby Roger de Coverly » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:09 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:I suspect the answer would be similar to that of Feist v Rural, and Yorkshire would win such a case.


I suppose you could try to deny them the non-published parts of the data. Probably the Yorkshire grader gets the whole database so that he can do the ECF part of his work.

We had someone from Bradford on the forum a while back extolling the virtues of the Yorkshire system . He seemed a bit put out when we reminded him that Yorkshire were paying rather less towards financing the ECF than the rest of the country.

Richard Cowan
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Re: How much does a game cost?

Postby Richard Cowan » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:09 pm

Just the number as I understand it. A number cannot be copywrighted, otherwise I'll copywrite Pi thanks, oooh and e too!

E Michael White
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Re: How much does a game cost?

Postby E Michael White » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:13 pm

I think originally GPO postcodes were protected in some way and could only be used in certain ways. Thompsons Local got into trouble when they reproduced it.

ECF grades aren't just numbers when considered as a whole. There are some subjective or creative elements involved, for example the level of grades, the spread and the size and selection of the control group used in the 2009 rehash.

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Re: How much does a game cost?

Postby Adam Raoof » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:30 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
E Michael White wrote:
Adam Raoof wrote:The YCF ChessNuts grading is excellent, but even they acknowledge that it couldn't be done properly without the ECF database.

Shouldn't Yorkshire be paying for the use of the ECF database ? If the ECF have produced ECF grades at a cost are they copyrighted in some way ?
It doesnt seem right that Yorkshire should financially piggyback in this way to produce their grades more cheaply.


I don't know enough about it, but we have no rights to either their use of the ECF grading algorithm, or their actual results. What of the ECF's are they actually using?


"Credits: I am grateful to the ECF for allowing use of their their codes and grades, and allowing links to their web-pages. " - http://www.chessnuts.org.uk/ny5/

By the way I have no problem with that at all, it's just one more reason why we need to continue to deliver a good grading service, and why it needs to be integrated with the members database, whatever option we vote for.
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Re: How much does a game cost?

Postby Alex Holowczak » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:33 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
"Credits: I am grateful to the ECF for allowing use of their their codes and grades, and allowing links to their web-pages. " - http://www.chessnuts.org.uk/ny5/

By the way I have no problem with that at all, it's just one more reason why we need to continue to deliver a good grading service, and why it needs to be integrated with the members database, whatever option we vote for.


Good job you don't have anything against it; I don't think you'd have a case if you did! They can use that information all they like.
Last edited by IM Jack Rudd on Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixing QUOTE tags

Roger de Coverly
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Re: How much does a game cost?

Postby Roger de Coverly » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:00 am

Adam Raoof wrote:"Credits: I am grateful to the ECF for allowing use of their their codes and grades, and allowing links to their web-pages. " - http://www.chessnuts.org.uk/ny5/

By the way I have no problem with that at all, it's just one more reason why we need to continue to deliver a good grading service, and why it needs to be integrated with the members database, whatever option we vote for.


You do realise, I hope, that the continued existence of the Yorkshire grading system enables the local Yorkshire leagues to opt out of funding the ECF, whatever method you choose for funding.

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Re: How much does a game cost?

Postby Alex Holowczak » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:18 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Adam Raoof wrote:"Credits: I am grateful to the ECF for allowing use of their their codes and grades, and allowing links to their web-pages. " - http://www.chessnuts.org.uk/ny5/

By the way I have no problem with that at all, it's just one more reason why we need to continue to deliver a good grading service, and why it needs to be integrated with the members database, whatever option we vote for.


You do realise, I hope, that the continued existence of the Yorkshire grading system enables the local Yorkshire leagues to opt out of funding the ECF, whatever method you choose for funding.


I'm sure Adam realises. What would you like Adam and the ECF to do to stop them? As far as I can see, everything is a double-edged sword: banning them from the Counties (as I think you've previously suggested) would hurt relations even more, and make them even less likely to want to fund the ECF. The other option is to try to build a bridge to bring them on board, but I would imagine that takes some time. I certainly wouldn't know what to do about it... A good job it's not my decision. :D

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Re: How much does a game cost?

Postby Richard Cowan » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:52 am

Competition is supposed to be good right? :)

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Re: How much does a game cost?

Postby Adam Raoof » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:57 am

Richard Cowan wrote:Competition is supposed to be good right? :)


Exactly. I don't have any problem with it, I think it obliges the ECF to provide better services for members - and hopefully they will choose to join the ECF as a result. If we are all-membership, it's even more crucial to deliver those services and add more value to membership in a way that players can see - for instance a really revamped national grand prix with a good prize fund, but obligations on organisers in return.
Adam Raoof
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Re: How much does a game cost?

Postby Roger de Coverly » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:21 pm

Adam Raoof wrote: for instance a really revamped national grand prix with a good prize fund, but obligations on organisers in return.


Of interest to regular Congress players, but of no interest to a League player only intending to play a couple of Congresses a year, if that.

Andrew's numbers for membership costs were just enough to finance the ECF. There wasn't anything left over for bells and whistles.

If the sanction for non-member league players is that their grade is withheld, you might expect to see competition from private grading schemes. Still if the ECF is after central membership, it's the ECF's problem to market membership and persuade people to join. If you can't convince those who don't play much of why they should join, you are going to lose even the modest income you get today from the events they play in.

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Re: How much does a game cost?

Postby Richard Cowan » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:17 pm

If you can't convince those who don't play much of why they should join, you are going to lose even the modest income you get today from the events they play in.


Roger, this is what I've been saying all along. I don't think it's good for the ECF to rely on funding from such sources anyway. You can never please all of the people all of the time, if some of them do pay, this will make up in part for those who don't wish to. Other funding sources, (i.e. creative ones I've been detailing,) should be able to make up the shortfall in the long-term, and we can hope it will be more attractive to sponsors / realise the benefits of a centralised membership scheme.

The point is that people who play only a few games a year shouldn't be the main focus of the ECF - they are a minority, that the ECF can welcome, but shouldn't base policy around.


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