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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:11 am 
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Unfortunately I can see both sides of this one. There is room for improvement.
Alan Burke wrote:
If all parents were treated equally then that is fine, but I was only responding to Adam Hunt's comment who said he was at the event and that the men and boys were not allowed in the room - but never said anything about other women and girls being told to leave.
In schools for example both parents have to be treated equally and this is not altered by divorce/separation etc. For example if one parent is sent a hard copy school report a separated parent must be sent a copy also at the same time. I cant remember whether this is law or a government department ruling but schools have to comply. It is not appropriate to send it only to the parent who may have legal care and control or even a residence order and expect them to show it to the other, unless both parents agree to that.

Alan’s point relates to care on the day, not specifically to separated parents. but to which parent is accompanying the player. It is usually sensible to follow related official or legal guidelines even though these may not apply to private analysis sessions as parents may expect a similar arrangement. Adam H is just supporting big sis but perhaps he could check the legal points.

On the other hand I can see Harriot’s point
adam_hunt wrote:
The reason for 'booting' the men and boys out of the coaching room was because Harriet felt that it was discouraging the girls from participating in the coaching.

Seems the best option is to boot out all or none.
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Everyone else, there isn't really a need to reply to what Alan said.
You're in danger of becoming like D Sedgwick, trying to pre-empt and prevent replies; this can result in the ECF not following the best course of action.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:25 am 
Christopher K ... Unfortunately it seems that people have not been willing to adhere to your suggestion and are determined to continue with the discussion .. and as I have again been quoted, this time by Richard Bates, then I must reply.

Richard Bates ... OK - I didn't see the name of Harriet Hunt in the attached report and I will therefore apologise for not doing so. However, nobody has yet pointed out where I actually criticised her for anything - I was just giving a reason to Adam Hunt who said he didn't understand why it might be a problem to not let males in the room, but yet nothing was said about females being treated in such a manner.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:32 am 
I really can't believe the nonsense that seems to be posted to every worthwhile thread that Sabrina opens. Is it not possible to appreciate the efforts of a hard working volunteer that does a lot of good for chess and backs her events with her own money and not peddle sexist propoganda in an attempt to undermine her?

Having visited her Midland girls event and her girls and mixed coaching at e2e4 events I have some idea of the set-up and a coaching room is for coaching, not for everyone else to hang out in. Regardless of who the people are, the important thing is that the coach and the player can work together without distraction.

If Sabrina is reading this I would urge her to ignore the people who seek to hijack her threads and to concentrate on the feedback from players and parents and to carry on her good work.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:45 am 
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Clearly Harriet made a big mistake focusing on the girls - not what she was there to do at all? The whole purpose of the event was to seek to develop chess for females in an activity in which they are under represented. At the same time Harriet had the insight to seek to create a small tournament to occupy those unable to compete in the main tournament (namely the males). Her lecture at lunchtime was excellent and engaging as was her instruction all day, the only downside was that she was unable to chop herself in two and compete in the women's tournament. We are lucky to have such players willing to devote their time to women's and junior chess.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:44 am 
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Sabrina Chevannes wrote:
But neither of those are girls' events :p


Sabrina

No, Manchester doesn't run girls only events, but hope that girls will continue to enter our events because we don't run them in the dodgy venues to which David alluded (maybe wrongly) are common on his side of the Pennines (however, I note you ran an event at Alwoodley, which is not a dodgy venue in my experience :) )

I would hope that you continue your good work, and if you do wish to venture to Manchester then we would be happy to help

Indeed, my consideration of whether to encourage my daughter to take up chess is conditioned by whether it is a welcoming environment. From your previous comments you are trying to learn from your negative experiences to produce positive experiences for others, which is brilliant.

I think my daughter would find it amusing to see boys kicked out of a coaching session so that she could learn more. She wouldn't be happy to see her sole surviving parent kicked out unless the other mums as well as dads were kicked out, which is the point that Alan is trying to make.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:00 pm 
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adam_hunt wrote:
I was there. The reason for 'booting' the men and boys out of the coaching room was because Harriet felt that it was discouraging the girls from participating in the coaching. Considering this was a girls event, and that the coaching was for girls I don't understand the comment and why there should be a problem with this.


The problem is, according to the SDA 1975 you are breaking the law.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:22 pm 
Simon Dixon wrote:
adam_hunt wrote:
I was there. The reason for 'booting' the men and boys out of the coaching room was because Harriet felt that it was discouraging the girls from participating in the coaching. Considering this was a girls event, and that the coaching was for girls I don't understand the comment and why there should be a problem with this.


The problem is, according to the SDA 1975 you are breaking the law.

Don't you just love barrack room lawyers? Especially when, as in this instance, they are completely wrong.

Firstly, The Sex Discrimination Act 1975 was repealed in 2010 and as such is no longer in force.

We do now have the Equality Act 2010 though. The 2010 Act recognises that there are certain instances when it is reasonable (and legal) to take positive action in favour of one sex. One particular (and relevant) exemption, for example, is to encourage minority participants in sports or games.

I do wish people would research their statements or take legal advice before making assertions purporting them to be fact.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:25 pm 
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Loz posted:

"I really can't believe the nonsense that seems to be posted to every worthwhile thread..."

There are always people ready to have pop.
But to be fair the forum has been slack of late.
UFO's, Moon landings, Rocker fuel on the Moon, God,
and of course endless ramblings about gradings.

All the grumbles gets knocked in touch with this one statement
lifted from link Sabs gave at the start of the thread.

“We loved your coaching! We have never felt so inspired to play more chess!”

Any chance of seeing some games played by the kids.
I see from the pics some of them are keeping a score.
I'm sure they would get a buzz from seeing their wins posted.

Wee complaint/obsevation.

The game Amy Hoare vs. Meri Grigoryan
spreads all over the page, I cannot read what is underneath it.

Image

I've added a pic to show what I can see just in case
it's my naff out of date kit that is doing this.

Keep up the good work.
Take a deep breath before replying to a post.
(as a chief winder-upper the most annoying reply is no reply at all.)

Let's see some of the games from the kids.
I love seeing their fertile minds in action and how they
paint the trees red to get their ideas across.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:38 pm 
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Geoff Chandler wrote:
I've added a pic to show what I can see just in case
it's my naff out of date kit that is doing this.

Looks fine in the current versions of Chrome, Firefox and IE, so I think you've hit the nail on the head.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:48 pm 
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That's another Sean Hewitt "FIRST DOWN"

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:51 pm 
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There is abundant evidence that girls learn, and participate in a group, better in the absence of boys/men (I can see why that might include male parents) and so I am sure that Harriet was right in insisting on a girls-only environment. I believe that she went to an all-girls school herself. She should be praised for being assertive in doing what she thought was right.

On a sidenote, it is great to see both Harriet and Jovanka both giving up their time to develop girls' chess. It occurs to me that willingness to develop girls' chess could be a factor in making selection decisions for the English team. Only one factor, of course, and it shouldn't be interpreted to favour those who coach as their livelihood. But everyone can afford to give up one day in a year, at least, and being part of the English team does make one a kind of role model, such that one day or so each year should not be too much to ask. The results, it seems, are potentially tremendous.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:58 pm 
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Cheers Ian.

Windows 3.1 is not all it's cracked up to be.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:00 pm 
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Quote:
Sean Hewitt wrote:
Don't you just love barrack room lawyers? Especially when, as in this instance, they are completely wrong.


Yes, I do indeed, let me know when you plan to exclude parents on the basis of gender.


Quote:
Firstly, The s*x Discrimination Act 1975 was repealed in 2010 and as such is no longer in force.


The SDA 1975 has been amended several times, the law still stands.

Quote:
I do wish people would research their statements or take legal advice before making assertions purporting them to be fact.


Ditto, or would you have us believe there is no such thing as SD in 2011.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:14 pm 
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I don't understand why this thread has caused so many problems again! I have just posted a report to a lovely event which everyone enjoyed. The boys and men really enjoyed the tournament and didn't expect to get coaching as they were just their supporting their sisters/daughters, but still received a free lecture and some did indeed sit in the coaching. Harriet didn't "kick" anyone out, but she just noticed that during the first couple of rounds, the girls felt a bit intimidated and didn't want to come into the coaching room because there were lots of boys and men in there.

Since the reason for creating these sort of tournaments was to avoid this sort of thing from happening, Harriet used her initiative (and asked me first by the way, so if anyone has a problem with authority, blame me because I told her she should go ahead and do it) to create a tournament to "occupy" the males. They seemed to really enjoy it.

I mean, you had to have been there, and those people that were there who have commented on this thread, adam and david, have said it was great so I still will believe that the event was a success and I won't let the other people's negatives comments bring us down because I think we have encouraged many girls to play and that is a good thing.

And Mick, yes I would love to help out in Manchester - there are a few good girls there. I think one came 2nd in our plate, so you have potential up there, so just PM me if you want to plan anything.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:23 pm 
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E Michael White wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Everyone else, there isn't really a need to reply to what Alan said.
You're in danger of becoming like D Sedgwick, trying to pre-empt and prevent replies; this can result in the ECF not following the best course of action.

Do you really believe that either Christopher or I have that degree of influence either over the ECF or over posters on this Forum?


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